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OOP 3 bet pot Low SPR AKo 300bb Multiway $5/$5

King Posts: 28Subscriber
edited November 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Theory wise, this would be "getting all the money into the pot." This is live poker though. Thoughts?

$5/$5 game. $500 cap.

I've been playing tight since V showed up. I have shown down strong/ winning hands at showndown. V is an older woman (grandma status) and typically plays $20/$40 limit when it runs. V is known by most of the regs in the room. My read is that V plays ABC. The only hand that I saw from her was where she doubled up with top set on a dry board.

$1440 effective

Grandma opens to $20 in UTG3 ($1440). Reg calls in MP ($220). Young Asian male calls in CO ($1500). Older Gambly Asian gentleman calls in btn ($500). I look down at A K in SB and raise to $135 (covers). All call. 5 ways to the flop.

Pre- After the open and all the calls, this is a mandatory 3 bet for value. In terms of bet sizing, I think that I could have gone bigger because of effective stack size, probably $180ish. I think Grandma has discounted AA/KK/AK/KJ+; 99-QQ. I imagine she would have 3b AA/KK though. I think all the other callers have PP/ Suited Connectors/ Axs/

K 7 4 ($675)
I bet $330. Grandma calls. The reg calls and is all in for $85.
-I hit the flop with a ~2ish SPR vs grandma on a dry board. Betting for value on the flop. Just under half pot seems about right in this huge pot. Grandma's range is still the same: discounted AA/KK/AK/KJ+; 99-QQ. Does anyone see merit to betting smaller/larger on the flop? I think betting $150-450ish does the same job. If a V is calling here, they will call those bet sizes, if not closer to pot.

K 7 4 Q ($1420)
I check. Grandma shoves for $975. I call.

This is a bad turn card. I'm behind the discounted AA/KK/KQ; way behind QQ, ahead of KJ/KJs, and 99/TT/JJ aren't shoving. Against this range, since we have the K , we have 39% equity. The read is she is never bluff but she may think she is value betting KJ after I check. If she doesn't have KJ in her range, we have ~18% equity. The pot will be $975 to win $3370. If she
SPR was 2ish on the flop so the plan was to get it in. Are we just getting it in? Any non-broadway card, I am shoving the turn.
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Comments

  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    So first bit of criticism....too many words. You 3b AK and got called by the whole field. Dry K high flop and an SPR of 2. End of post.

    Once the flop comes, just understand that all the money is going in. And it's not going to take much play in order to get there. So, there's really no rush. Just check the flop. It's unlikely it checks through that many people. Any worse K is definitely gonna bet.

    If it does check through, hands like 88-QQ are going to feel alot better about calling your lead on the turn.

    I'm never folding after the flop. I will slow play as long as I can, to under-rep my hand and get paid by as many worse holdings as possible. If a guy spikes a two outer to beat me on the turn/river...so be it.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    You don't have the Kh.

    I supose the call is fine but expect grandma to have KK/KQ/QQ here a lot. Her open then call 3! Should be very narrow. I barely want to give her KQ except for the turn shove. Hoping she has KJ is pushing it but possible.
  • bleedtilt Posts: 126Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    I cried when I saw your flop bet size. We have 1 pair, 4 opponents, semi connected board. I am betting 75-80% pot here.
  • King Posts: 28Subscriber
    BananaStand said:
    So first bit of criticism....too many words. You 3b AK and got called by the whole field. Dry K high flop and an SPR of 2. End of post.
    SPR is a general rule to be used with REM. There are exceptions.
  • King Posts: 28Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    You don't have the Kh.

    I supose the call is fine but expect grandma to have KK/KQ/QQ here a lot. Her open then call 3! Should be very narrow. I barely want to give her KQ except for the turn shove. Hoping she has KJ is pushing it but possible.
    My bad. K. Same equity though. Without KJ in her range, we have 18% equity. We are putting in 975$ (close to 200bbs!) at 18% equity. That is a huge mistake. Huge!
    bleedtilt said:
    I cried when I saw your flop bet size. We have 1 pair, 4 opponents, semi connected board. I am betting 75-80% pot here.
    Are you saying that betting 75-80% pot here will get the same call as my just under 50% pot. What sizing do you usually go with your 3 bets on the flop? I know it's different because this is multi-way but I generally go 50% pot unless its a wet board.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    [quote]
    King said:
    pokertime said:
    You don't have the Kh.

    I supose the call is fine but expect grandma to have KK/KQ/QQ here a lot. Her open then call 3! Should be very narrow. I barely want to give her KQ except for the turn shove. Hoping she has KJ is pushing it but possible.
    My bad. K. Same equity though. Without KJ in her range, we have 18% equity. We are putting in 975$ (close to 200bbs!) at 18% equity. That is a huge mistake. Huge!
    Maybe. It doesn't look like you are putting AK in her range and though there are limited combos I think it should be in there. Part of the issue is that if you are going to 3! AK and then fold when you hit a pair and get heat you might even want to check flop and see what happens. The flop is actaully very dry so I don't even hate a check flop, CR flop etc as you are WA/WB.

  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    I don't put too many combos of KJ in her range after your 3 bet. as played, i'm folding the turn
  • fishcake Posts: 998Subscriber
    I think your flop bet is still too big. I'd check/fold the turn easily.
  • Dragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    King said:
    The only hand that I saw from her was where she doubled up with top set on a dry board.
    And now I suspect she's double-ing up again with top set on a dry board :-)
    King said:
    The pot will be $975 to win $3370
    No, the pot is $2395, $975 to call; it's only a $3370 pot if you add your own $975.
    $2395, $975 to call means you need 40% equity to call, and there's no way you have 40%. In fact you barely have 40% even if we decide to give your 'ABC Grandma' a LAGTARD spazz-out factor and assign her half the JJ combos and half the KJ combos, along with all the QQ+, AK, and KQ combos.

    If Grandma plays ABC and you've only seen her shoveling money in with top set on a dry board, the turn is an easy check/fold. We beat no value hand. There's no flush draw. No straight draw unless you thing ABC Grandma called your 3! with 56. At best we're chopping with AK.

    I don't see many villains - let alone ABC Grandma villains - show up here with KJ or JJ.

    [edit: actually it's 30%, not 40% to call - so sure, I guess we have 30% if we give Grandma enough KJ / JJ combos.]
  • bballwiz Posts: 55Subscriber
    I posted a similar hand where I was deep with another player and a short stack was all in on the side. Do you think the fact that there is a player all in effects the hand at all?
    I think she is super strong to begin with and with the player being all in a check/fold seems to be the play.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    Do your math again dragon. 40 percent can't be right

    I don't have a calculator handy, but the right number should be around 27 percent.

    Hard to believe we don't have that, but I guess it's possible. I'm not sure a limit reg has much of a fold button preflop, so I think there are enough worse kings here to call but I guess it's close after a queen on the turn
  • King Posts: 28Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    workinghard said:
    I don't put too many combos of KJ in her range after your 3 bet. as played, i'm folding the turn
    So this is a bad enough runout for you to fold TPTK in a 3bet pot with a SPR of 2? If the turn was any other card besides any broadways, are you putting all the money in on the turn?
    fishcake said:
    I think your flop bet is still too big.
    What bet sizing are you going with here? If you are trying to get value, my bet size should have been bigger. If you are trying to get through the hand cheaply while getting some value, are you betting 1/3 pot? If you go with the smaller bet size, are you trying to pot control here? Pot control with an SPR of 2, on the flop?


    The reason why I posted this hand is this: How does SPR work with REM. Here, we have an ABC player with an SPR of 2 and we have TPTK. This should be an auto stack off on the flop vs the V as we are ahead of her R- Range. The board changes on the turn and it heavily favors our opponent range. We are losing to almost everything in V's range, and chopping at best. Getting in just under 200 bbs on the turn where we are an 18% dog (E- equity) seems to be a huge mistake to me. (M- Maximize) Make the most EV play possible.
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    and.... (anti-climactic) Grandma wins with QQ.
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    Joanna said:
    and.... (anti-climactic) Grandma wins with QQ.
    Right, King?

  • daynnight Posts: 200Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    Grunch.

    Preflop is good, turn is good until you called her shove. You are never good here. A limit player will check back AK, KJss and all the hands you beat or chop with. If she jams she almost always has KK/KQs/QQ or 44/77. Turn is a easy fold IMO. Exploitable... but this is live poker as you said.
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    We have to consider that that turn is the absolute worst turn for us. We only chop with AK and I see her checking back possibly given how she plays and you can have AA. Check fold on paper. In real time it's tough. She has QQ or KQ. Could be KK but unlikely because of cards out.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    I would cbet smaller than what you did because flop is multiway with low SPR. Turn is a really bad card, and I suspect that you are chopping against AK occasionally and usually crushed by slowplayed AA, KQs, and sets.
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