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$5-$10 3 interesting flushing hands

BartBart Posts: 6,083AdministratorLeadPro
edited November 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hand 1

I am one of the Villians in this hand and I open to $35 UTG w $1700. One caller in the field and we call on the button with 7 8 with $2500. BB a guy that normally plays 5-5 also calls w $2000

$140 FLOP: Q J T

BB checks, Bart bets 100. Fold, we call, BB thinks and overcalls.

$440 TURN 9

BB checks, Bart checks we bet $300 quickly. BB fidgets takes a long time, makes like he's gonna muck and calls. Bart thinks for a while and over calls.

$1340 RIVER: 8

BB stares at the point starts to cut out huge stacks of $25 chips and finally bets $1000. Bart snap folds. What do we do?

Hand 2

Hero has very good image after winning a big pot and sits with over $4000, covers table. V1 is very good occasional player. He was a pro at one time hasn't been around in a while. Sits w $3000. Definitely capable of making moves but very aware of his image and a good hand reader.

Hero opens UTG to $35 w A J 3 calls in field and V1 calls in BB.

$175 FLOP A 6 4

Checked to Hero who bets $110. All fold quickly back to BB who calls.

$405 TURN J

BB checks, Hero bets $250. BB thinks for a while cuts out some raising chips but just calls.

$905: RIVER: Q

A. BB checks..are we betting here against a good player?

B. BB bets X. How big does X have to be for us to fold? (How much are we calling at the end)?

Hand 3.

V1 is very fishy loose passive lady. She sits w $1200. Usually plays 5-5. Hero covers w $3000. Playing 5 handed.

V1 opens to 25 UTG.. Hero on button 3 bets to $80 w A 5 folded back to V1 who calls. I range her on a big ace, pair 66-JJ or KQ.

$170 FLOP: A T 8

Check check.

$170 TURN: T Check check.

$170 RIVER: 4

She leads large for X. How much is X where we don't raise-fold the end and just call?

(In real time she bet $200). What do we think of that?
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Comments

  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    hand1 FOLD (snap), nice act OTT, this is most likely a straight or royal flush. Bart would probably at least not snapfold if he blocked A . Bart probably folded a set.

    hand2 against a good player I would definitely check flop or turn. we raise UTG and this board doesn't provide a lot of bluffs for hero. I think villain folds AT-A5s-A2s OTT. weird that he acted like he wants to raise turn but then calls. this is usually a very reliable weakness tell, but very strange from a goo player. maybe we shouldn't focus too much on that, could be reversed...

    A. I think it's a checkback. he has only two combos of A6s and A4s but 6 combos of sets and another four or five flushes.

    B. I don't think a river lead will ever happen from a good player TBH. makes no sense at all. if he did, X would be around 400 as a blockbet from A4s or A6s but not really worth discussing IMO. I hope that didn't happen...

    hand3 raise allin and pray she has K Q or Q J . I think this is optimal given your range assumption. I don't think we can really raise/fold any reasonable amount unless we minraise and that loses too much value IMO.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,083AdministratorLeadPro
    edited November 2016
    maphacks said:


    hand3 raise allin and pray she has K Q or Q J . I think this is optimal given your range assumption. I don't think we can really raise/fold any reasonable amount unless we minraise and that loses too much value IMO.
    Sorry dude I screwed up.. she had 1200 to start the hand..

    BTW one combo of quad Ts, 3 combos of 8s and one or 2 AT s dictate that she has more value range of full boats than flushes with super big sizing, no?

  • DSPoticDSPotic Posts: 28Subscriber
    On hand 3, I am having trouble coming up with a worse hand that could call a river raise, even if villain had bet 1/2 or 2/3 pot on river (instead of 1.2x pot).
    If she had AJ-AK, she would probably lead turn, and if she didn't, then she wouldn't lead river after the 3rd spade hits. Same issue with JJ. If I'm wrong and she would play AK this way, then she usually wouldn't overbet pot (she is betting for value and wants a call). So in the rare case in which she checks turn with a big ace and then leads river for over pot, then yes I suppose she might call a river raise. But that might be just one or two combos after all the conditional probabilities.
    If she had KQ other than KQss (15 combos), she might bluff river but obv wouldn't call your raise.
    If she had 66-77 or 99, it would be unusual for her to turn it into a bluff on river, but if she did, she can't call a raise, even if she is fishy.

    So we are left with KQss as the other hand that might take this line and call a river raise. And AT (2-4 combos), 88 (3 combos), and TT (1 combo) that will get stacks in. So our raise is called by two combos of worse hands and beaten by 6-8 combos of better. We need better than 1:1 to make the raise.

    Seems like a call on the river.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Hand 1.. snap fold.. pretending to much then betting $1000 river? looks like nut flush or straight flush..

    Hand 2- I am much less likely to bet here.. If I do I would bet rather small. as long as I feel that villain doesnt read this as weak and bluff raise me. If he/she is capable of this then I think a check back is fine. How big a bet would I call? I would call up to around half pot or a little less.. thats it. If I had seen villain before make this play with AK then maybe I might call a bit more.. Or if villain is capable of repping the flush.. but any more than half pot I think its a good value bet or bluff and against a good player I am just going to fold.. Especially if villain knows I hand read..

    Hand 3- If she bet $100 I would raise to $250-$300 and fold to a ship.. If she bet $400 I might just call. with her bet of $200 I am torn.. If we raise to say $400 would she overplay a hand? Flush or trips? If no then if we raise to $400 we can still fold to a ship.. All of these overbets are great spots if she can also bluff river..

    hopefully I read the action correctly :wink:
  • DonutDonkey22 Posts: 26SubscriberProfessional
    Hand 1: snapfold
    Hand 2: chk back river and expect to be good most of the time, but a good player isn't going to pay off a bet almost ever IMO. Runout is favorable for heros range, more backdoorflushes and AQ, very few bluffcombos.
    Facing a river bet would be pretty odd IMO from a good player. I think the runout is real favorable for hero's range so I wouldn't expect a good player to lead, in fact I'd at least consider bluff raising if led into. At the same time I don't mind calling a PSB. If villain is leading value here he isn't protecting his range at all. Folding is the only way to be exploited IMO and against a good player this is relevant.

    Hand 3: Seems like flatting is best, raise/folding would be good if V has more flushes than boats but based on preflop assumptions it seems this isn't the case.
  • today32today32 Posts: 44Subscriber
    I'll give this a shot, I haven't read past the first post yet. I'd appreciate feedback regarding my logic where I'm off base...

    HAND 1:
    The BB's range with respect to spades:
    1. Preflop - BB closes action calling $25 with $115 in pot, super wide. I dismiss A K as highly unlikely, but all other hands suited in spades are possible.
    2. Flop - BB check-overcalls Bart's $100 bet. Could be slow-playing an A high or K high flush, but I'm starting to discount lower flopped flushes of 6 high and lower, since most people would raise to get value/protect against another spade coming on the turn.
    3. Turn - BB checks then fake-muck-calls 300. Sounds like from Bart's description that it was an acting job, which would point to strength or being very comfortable. K 9 or an A high flush could continue slow playing here, trying to get a $300 call from Bart. I'd say the chance of a low flush (6 high and under) at this point is really slim, but maybe possible if the BB is just waiting for a safe river card to bet (normal 5-5 player playing conservative at higher stakes).
    4. River - BB takes time, slowly counts out huge stacks of $25 chips and bets $1000. Possibly mustering up the courage to bluff, and then pushing in a lot of chips to make it seem intimidating? Since our hand looks more like a straight than a flush, wouldn't he bet a little smaller to ensure he gets called by a straight?

    My gut says that he wouldn't step up in stakes and then lead out into 2 people with a $1k bluff after check-calling two streets. So it seems to me like he thinks he has the best hand. I think most times the BB will have an A high or K high flush, and sometimes have just the K or K× 9, and rarely have a baby flush.

    If I deem him to be a competent solid player, I'm probably folding. If I think he's just a recreational player, not capable of hand reading and capable of spazzing, then I'm calling. I'm not considering a raise.

    HAND 2:
    River bet against a good player?
    Since he closed the action in the BB preflop ($25 more with $150 in pot), he's wide and could have lots of things. Seems like all sets and 2-pair hands (flopped or turned) would have raised at least by the turn. He could have an Ace, a missed straight draw, or any suited hand with the 4 or 6 could have peeled the flop and then contemplated a raise on the turn. Seems like a bet would only be targeting AT or A9 for a call, while missed straight draws and weaker Aces will just fold. I could live with a check here.

    How much to call if V1 leads on the river?
    I'm probably calling $400 or less, just to catch the "blocker bets".

    HAND 3:
    I'm not very good at these... I would probably min-raise anything up to $175, and just call beyond that. I'd like to hear how the effective stack size should come into play on this.

    Thanks!
  • BartBart Posts: 6,083AdministratorLeadPro
    Interesting that some think that a lead from the villain in Hand 2 makes no sense on the river. Why doesn't it since we are considering checking back a hand as strong as AJ here? If I were him I would think that my range by betting flop and turn looks super strong. I wouldnt want to give (me) the opportunity of checking back if us as vilain has made a backdoor flush.

    Another weird quirk that I just thought of. What if, instead of me have AJ in the hand I actually had AA? Anyone find a check back here? We all seem to agree that it would very optimistic to get 3 streets from a hand like A9 or AT and since we now block most of the Ax combos is is hand now more skewed towards bd flushes?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    well if you had AA there are only two turned combo draws that had straight draws on flop. so is villain floating with other backdoor draws?
  • BartBart Posts: 6,083AdministratorLeadPro
    edited November 2016
    Thehammah said:
    well if you had AA there are only two turned combo draws that had straight draws on flop. so is villain floating with other backdoor draws?
    75hh, 78hh, 53hh, 58hh, 67hh, 86hh, 96hh, 5h6h, 54hh I think could all be possible closing the action.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Thehammah said:
    well if you had AA there are only two turned combo draws that had straight draws on flop. so is villain floating with other backdoor draws?
    75hh, 78hh, 53hh, 58hh, 67hh, 86hh, 96hh, 5h6h, 54hh I think could all be possible closing the action.
    then if hero has set of aces then checking and calling a small bet is fine. maybe up to a little less than half pot.

    anymore than that its a big bet dollar wise and I am not sure vil would make that bet with a hand thats worse.

    has vil to your knowledge ever slowplayed a flopped set this way even with the backdoor flush coming?
  • BartBart Posts: 6,083AdministratorLeadPro
    G
    Thehammah said:
    Bart said:
    Thehammah said:
    well if you had AA there are only two turned combo draws that had straight draws on flop. so is villain floating with other backdoor draws?
    75hh, 78hh, 53hh, 58hh, 67hh, 86hh, 96hh, 5h6h, 54hh I think could all be possible closing the action.
    then if hero has set of aces then checking and calling a small bet is fine. maybe up to a little less than half
    Positions, postions.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    hey its so hard to go back to op and look!!! :cry:
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Interesting that some think that a lead from the villain in Hand 2 makes no sense on the river. Why doesn't it since we are considering checking back a hand as strong as AJ here? If I were him I would think that my range by betting flop and turn looks super strong. I wouldnt want to give (me) the opportunity of checking back if us as vilain has made a backdoor flush.

    Another weird quirk that I just thought of. What if, instead of me have AJ in the hand I actually had AA? Anyone find a check back here? We all seem to agree that it would very optimistic to get 3 streets from a hand like A9 or AT and since we now block most of the Ax combos is is hand now more skewed towards bd flushes?
    what hands are calling a lead that aren't valuebets if he checks?

    also, it might be an okay play in vacuume but really bad for his checking range. that is never my main reason for a certain line but when it's really close, it definitely comes into play especially against a good player.

  • daynnight Posts: 200Subscriber
    Grunch
    hand 1. Fold
    hand 2. check back. A good player wont call with AT or less here and its unlikely he has A6/A4. If he donk bets we are calling as he is only repping 65hh,67hh,68hh all of which might re raise turn to some frequency maybe 15%. On the river he could decide to turn AxTh into a bluff vs our range which is almost always capped at no flush. I would call up to a full pot bet.
    Hand 3. Im raising. I doubt she checks AT/88 twice on the turn and the only boat she really has is 44. She could have KJss, KQss, K9ss, 97ss etc all of which will call a raise. Raise to 525
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Hand 1: Snap fold ...nice hollywood :???:
    Hand 2: I prob check back. Very hard to get value from worse from good player.
    AK very unlikely given he didn't 3bet after 3 calls in the field. AQ just got there, there's no way AT calling - that would be super bad.
    Bart said:
    What if, instead of me have AJ in the hand I actually had AA? Anyone find a check back here? We all seem to agree that it would very optimistic to get 3 streets from a hand like A9 or AT and since we now block most of the Ax combos is is hand now more skewed towards bd flushes?
    If we had top set, I'm betting. Yeah he might have some BD flushes, but he can also have AQ, AJ and all flopped sets. (vs good player I think it would be a good line for V to x/c all the way down with a set)
    I'm gonna bet ~600 and I don't think V can x/r w/o a flush, but sets probably can't fold to a good player that's capable of v-betting AJ-AK here...

    Hand 3: I guess if she bets like 400+ - we can't r/fold, so I suppose just call...

    As played.. she bets 200..make it 450-500.

  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    edited November 2016
    Holy crap Bart. One hand per post please. This thread has gotten REALLY tough to follow.

    Hand 1: I've said it before, I'll say it again.....Check/call, Check/call, Lead is the strongest line in live hold 'em. If you wanna find out why...go ahead and call here.

    Hand 2: I think he'd expect you to check AK back. He might expect you to check back a lot more of the top parts of your range. I really can't see a check here from him as anything but weakness. I'd bet real small here and hope he takes the bait to bluff raise. I think I lead maybe 200 here and call a raise.

    If V leads......see my answer for Hand 1. Though in this case, I might be tempted to call a reasonable sizing as it's really tough for him to have a flush here. Kxhh makes no sense on the flop unless he planned to take it away somehow later. He got such an opportunity on the turn and balked. Same thing for any heart draw that also had straight outs around the 6 and 4. Ex 87hh. I probably call up to about 2/3 pot here.

    Hand 3: Her line reeks of a "oh shit I donked into trip Tens, my turn x/r failed, and now I have to make up for lost value". A loose passive is going to call you with any Tx and all her weaker flushes. Sizing seems like it's a "you had to be there" kinda call. I think it's less about stack sizes and more about what's not an intimidating amount to this villain. Maybe $400 on top? It's tough in a forum to guess. In real life I'd have some visual cues like how she dressed or how much jewelry she wears in order to make an educated guess as to how much money would be "too much" with JT

    If she bets larger than the actual 200 as played, then I think you just shove over. The larger she bets, the more zany, and therefore less credible, the bet size becomes. And the wider her shove-calling range gets (since her pot odds will be better).
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Hand 1 I'm folding. BB flopped a nutted hand. He's not betting out river with 6 5 I think Bart either had a set or A Ko

    Hand 2. This runnout isn't the board that good i think players are trying to make moves on. I think our hand is nothing more than a bluff catcher. The only hand vil can have that he would check/call the river is AK and that's a stretch since you have all sets, AJ, and AQ in your range. Plus sometimes you fire away and hit a BD flush though that's unlikely given the broadway hearts that are out there that would consist of your opening range preflop. If he bets, it would have to be tiny to call. maybe 1/4 pot. I just don't see what he would be bluffing with or betting for value other than maybe AK. If he bets more than $300, pitch it. Unless you want to try to get him off specifically AQ by raising him?

    hand 3: I think if she bets over $400, i'm just calling. Anything less and I'm clicking it up. i'm folding if she goes over the top. as played, raise the $200 to $450 to get called by a worse flush.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,083AdministratorLeadPro
    BananaStand said:
    Holy crap Bart. One hand per post please. This thread has gotten REALLY tough to follow.



    Hand 2: I think he'd expect you to check AK back. He might expect you to check back a lot more of the top parts of your range. I really can't see a check here from him as anything but weakness. I'd bet real small here and hope he takes the bait to bluff raise. I think I lead maybe 200 here and call a raise.

    If V leads......see my answer for Hand 1. Though in this case, I might be tempted to call a reasonable sizing as it's really tough for him to have a flush here. Kxhh makes no sense on the flop unless he planned to take it away somehow later. He got such an opportunity on the turn and balked. Same thing for any heart draw that also had straight outs around the 6 and 4. Ex 87hh. I probably call up to about 2/3 pot here.

    So in hand 2 you would call up to a $600 bet on the river and/or you would bet $200 and call a checkraise? Trying to be diplomatic as possible and I will discuss this hand tomorrow but notice how your thoughts arent in line with others that have posted in this thread and I think you are far far off here in the analysis of this hand.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    BananaStand said:
    Holy crap Bart. One hand per post please. This thread has gotten REALLY tough to follow.
    agreed

  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    I like this more conceptual format for poker hands. Instead of something like "vill bets $50, what do we do?" we think about the hands given a range of possible screnarios from vil checking, to betting a range of money.
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