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Would you 4-bet or flat here with Aces? Interesting spot due to history.

md_donk Posts: 25Subscriber
edited December 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5, $600 cap. Villian is young, thinking player, and the most aggressive preflop raiser at this table but not a true LAG. We had already tangled in big pots twice in the session prior to the hand in question. I'm probably viewed by the table as TAG-ish, but these two hands likely influenced my image more than anything else:

History Hand 1, effective stacks ~1K:
I raise EP with A Q, V 3-bets, I call.
Flop is J 3 3×. I check-call flop.
Turn is 5. I lead out $200 to rep a flush. V tank-calls. Planning to shove non-diamond river.
River is 9, pot around $700. I go ahead and shove anyway for ~$650 (spew or brilliant bluff? You decide. That could be a whole other thread). V tanks several minutes (it seemed like an eternity) and ultimately folds. During the tank he asks if I will show if he folds, I nod yes, and I do show the bluff at the end. During the tank he also asked if I had Jacks full, making me think he was at the top of his non-boat range (A A×).

History Hand 2, effective stacks don't remember, not important until river.
I have AQo in BB. Multiway pot at first, flop has two queens. I check call V on flop and turn (turn brings a front door flush).
River is the case queen :), effective remaining stacks $470 with a ~$300 pot. I check to induce a bet, he bets $170, I wait a few beats and shove. He jokes about me showing if he folds, then folds relatively quickly for him.
But I do show, because there is a high hand special going on. (spoiler: it held for 1/2 hour before quad kings topped it).

ok, enough preamble, otth.
Effective stacks ~$600. I wake up UTG with A A and open for $25. Two callers. V is in button and raises to $125.

The way the game has been played, it's likely both callers would fold if I flatted.

So, if you made it this far...would you flat or 4-bet in this spot, and why?


Tagged:

Comments

  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    Small 4 bet entice him in, make it like $250 he could be at lower part of range with button 3 bet. Taking AA to a 4 way pot out of position I don't prefer especially with the shorter stacks, I think bloating the pot the most while we are ahead is the best play.
    Being tricky and inviting 3 other players in I am not a fan off. Inviting 1 player in I really like.
    Stacks also short enough that betting most flops $100 turn $100 and river $150 will get stacks through as a base plan. Obv adjusting depending on flop textures & run out.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Hand 1 he did not fold the AdAx and probably not the Ad at all. Maybe QdQx.

    Hand 2 just proves to him that the bluff is rare and it's usually nuts. Also he probably only had AK or a small pair. Was there a 3! PF?

    If your 100% others will fold then I can flat here with the intention of never folding post. You have history but you also showed decent hands both times so he's not necessarily expecting you to be light. I would expect him to have TT+ and AK at least. If you 4! Then it should be going in on the right flop so that is fine as well. He's probably shoving back KK PF and flatting TT-JJ and AK then folding if he misses so nothing wrong with getting your value PF. Not sure he stacks off QQ/JJ to a low flop.
    by 1md_donk
  • md_donk Posts: 25Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    Hand 2 just proves to him that the bluff is rare and it's usually nuts. Also he probably only had AK or a small pair. Was there a 3! PF?
    No, I was BB, one limper, V raise to $25, we both flatted.

  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    md_donk said:
    pokertime said:
    Hand 2 just proves to him that the bluff is rare and it's usually nuts. Also he probably only had AK or a small pair. Was there a 3! PF?
    No, I was BB, one limper, V raise to $25, we both flatted.

    Yea. Sounds like he was just barreling to rep a Q or big pair.
  • md_donk Posts: 25Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    md_donk said:
    pokertime said:
    Hand 2 just proves to him that the bluff is rare and it's usually nuts. Also he probably only had AK or a small pair. Was there a 3! PF?
    No, I was BB, one limper, V raise to $25, we both flatted.

    Yea. Sounds like he was just barreling to rep a Q or big pair.
    Agree for that hand, one thing I left out to keep the writeup more concise(ish), V had bet undersized on flop, $30 into $70 after rake. The turn bet might have been under half pot as well.

  • Latrell1515 Posts: 237Subscriber
    As JKH said, this is a perfect min click back to entice a possible spew from him
    by 1md_donk
  • GhostDogGhostDog Posts: 328Subscriber
    I like a flat or a shove here, especially with the sizing villain chose for his 3bet. How often is anyone min clicking it back with less than KK in your player pool?

    Flating keeps in his bluffs and also allows you to get it in on 2 streets max. With a $300 pot and $475 effective I'd check call all bets under $200 and check raise all bets over $200.

    Shoving might induce a call from TT type hands as villain could put us on AK trying to get max fold equity. You've shown the ability to bluff and this could help with this play.
    by 1md_donk
  • daynnight Posts: 200Subscriber
    H1 is massive spew. His range for calling turn is super strong and blidnly shoving on the river isnt going to work very often..

    By this time he is probably fed up with you, so 4bet gii
    by 1md_donk
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Click it up to 250 :tu:
    x/shove any non Axx flop
    If checks through, bet/bet turn/river.
    by 1md_donk
  • md_donk Posts: 25Subscriber
    GhostDog said:
    I like a flat or a shove here, especially with the sizing villain chose for his 3bet. How often is anyone min clicking it back with less than KK in your player pool?
    Min clicks are rare here and basically always strong.
    daynnight said:
    H1 is massive spew. His range for calling turn is super strong and blidnly shoving on the river isnt going to work very often..
    Yeah, that's about my view in retrospect :).
    daynnight said:

    By this time he is probably fed up with you
    This is for certain.

  • md_donk Posts: 25Subscriber
    Thanks for all the feedback. Results:

    Spoiler:

    I considered all the options mentioned above, except for shoving...just didn't think of that in the moment. Ended up making a "conventional" 2/3 pot raise of $200 on top. V tank-folded.

    I'm curious how it played out in the alternate universe where I flatted, and also the one where I remembered to consider shoving and then did so.
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