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Interesting spot vs good Pro

DavidTuchman Posts: 789Pro
edited December 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I open KK in MP ($2500) very good reg (Jameson Singer) flats in HJ ($1770) along with 2 others ($80)

flop K56r ... I bet $60. Villain calls ($200)

.... turn Ar ... hero?

I bet $130... villain calls. ($460)

river 6 ... hero?

Jameson and I discussed this hand on this week's under the gun podcast. Give it a listen and let me know what you think.

Hero decided to bet $140 on river

Villain raises to $600

Hero? (Villain has an additional $940 behind after his raise)

Tuck
Tagged:
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Comments

  • fishcake Posts: 998Subscriber
    Dislike your bet sizing all around. Why are you blasting the flop here? Turn bet is massive, too. You arrive at the river with such a strong range as well as him and now you're betting super small. I don't really get it. I'll listen to the podcast later.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    if you think villain is capable of folding worse sets if you raise the river, then just call. however, in all honesty, if I had KK, I'm getting it all in on this board. he could put you on AK so you would beat slow played sets.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,239Member
    I think calling river is best here, doubt we can fold but also doubt that if we shove we'll get called by worse.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,239Member
    workinghard said:
    if you think villain is capable of folding worse sets if you raise the river, then just call. however, in all honesty, if I had KK, I'm getting it all in on this board. he could put you on AK so you would beat slow played sets.
    There are only 3 combos of worse sets that we beat and if V is as good as Tuck says he is then I think he folds 55 to a shove and only calls with AA or 66
  • MastaC707 Posts: 95Subscriber
    Villan flatting in LP is gonna be pretty wide. Suited connectors small and med pairs and Ax suited type hands. Now 56x would flat the flop, maybe raise some times, but as there are no real draws that you could have him raising here can be some what discounted. But once the A hits the turn, him flatting 56 to a large turn bet (relative to the pot) makes 56 somewhat unlikely against this V, leaving his value range heavily weighted towards 55/66. Which may or may not raise turn. If he believes you to bet the river often with AK he may wait to raise. Also he could be trying to pot control somewhat in cooler situations knowing he can bomb the river if the sizing / play leads him to think his set is good. Now the 6 on the river. Your decision to bet small can be seen as the weak / thin value type bet he was hoping to see and can now bomb the river for value. Combinatorially he's got 3 combos of 55 to 1 combo of 66. I think this is a pretty standard shove and expect to see 55 often when called. He could have some bluffs, but that's pretty inconsequential as you're going after his value range.

    Masta--

    Edit: I haven't listened to the podcast, just saw the 55 tagged. I'm assuming the tag of 55 means that's what he had?
  • MasonIsAClown Posts: 102SubscriberProfessional
    We are honestly NEVER reraising river with AK without some very intense history and a very good reason to do so. So why should he call with 55? How many bare 6x hands do we have here? How many bluffs do we have? Our hand is screaming strength with this line once we are still able to rip it.

    If the villain is like virtually the entire player pool just ship it happily, as he's not getting tricky with AA pre and on flop and turn, probably not choosing that sizing with quads and he's calling off every single boat and any very sticky six that got here this way, but if he's a very good pro, I think this is a call, because the opposite of all that is possible.

    It's never a fold though. If I could only shove or fold for some reason, I'd snap shove.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    edited December 2016
    I kinda agree with fishcake on sizing. Why lead so small on the river? And more pre please.

    Your line looks like a 'bet/fold', so I would suspect he's attacking you with a range that isn't totally nutted. We're definitely not folding.

    I guess you gotta ask yourself if the aggressive action theorem applies here when he has 55, 65, A6. Or, is he in the extreme minority of 5/5 players who would find a raise/fold here?

    I just don't see people folding those hands at this level. I don't know Jameson, or anything about him. But this is a really unique spot, deep stacked, with two thinking players that seem to know each other.. Given your line and sizing, he probably has a really good hand. This is not a routine situation by any means. Even a really good player is capable of making a mistake here.

    Ship it.
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    Against a "good pro"-as I understand the profile- I like the overall line here and think it is a clear call on river. He is weighted much more towards value here (though 78 is a possible bluffing candidate) but the only value range he will call a shove with beats you. Any good player worth his/her salt will recognize what an undersized river bet, 3bet shove means and dump 55, 56, A6. We'll, A6 might be a bit harder but I still think it's a fold given action, barring weird level war. If you were deeper, maybe a min click back fold to shove?

    As for sizing itself, I think the river bet is interesting. You seem to have given him some bricked draws and medium strength hands. I'll listen to podcast to hear more.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,132Subscriber
    I think you have to ship it.
    I haven't listened to the podcast, but I'm guessing he ended up having 66 for quads, but reality is he can easily have 55 or even A6s I think.

    And because the board has AK in it and you have ALL AK in your range I think it would be very difficult for V to fold something like 55 to bet-3bet on river.

    I can see MAYBE if board was something like K56T6...maybe you just call, but with K56A6 - I think it's a ship...
    The argument that a very very good player will fold a boat is great in theory, but I think it's much harder in real life, especially vs aggro player like yourself ...all kinds of self leveling might be going on.

    Looking forward to the podcast :lol:
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    I played an hour with Dave that day.. missed the hand but he asked me about it. For me whether to raise the river or call is down to this.. Would villain call with 55 or 65 or A6?

    Vil range is so narrow that yes there is only basically one combo that beats us but on the other hand would he fold an underfull?

    If this was your avg rec or even reg at hustler I would say shipping is easy here.. especially since Dave bet so little on the river. I actually liked the river bet.. Once villain calls the turn what ace can he have that isnt full? The only two pair is A6 and A5..one is counterfeited and the other fills up on the river.. Betting small will get an auto call to chop with A5 and A6 is very likely to raise.

    If you think villain might only call your river bomb then betting small is better since you get villain to raise putting in a bigger bet than your bomb bet..

    for example. Say vil had A6.. dave bombs $500 villain calls.. dave makes $500.. instead dave bets $140 making it look like he has maybe AK or AQ and now villain raises to $600.. dave has already made more..

    the other option and I think its the worst as players get better and better is to just open ship..When a player is good regardless is they are tight or not and can hand read and they have an underful they are much much more likely to fold. we dont want them to fold.. So I really like daves small bet..

    So the question is would Jameson call Daves ship with 55 A6 or 56?
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber

    As played fine. I'm not sure why fish thinks those bets are so big. Pretty sure I would have bet about the same. You just hope someone has something/doesn't believe you and you get value.

    River I just call. You bet small so you could have induced a bluff by a good player trying to blow you off AK or over pair and it's possible he has 55. He's never calling with worse except maybe 55 so shove would be a spew IMO. It's slow played AA/66/55 or bluff so call seems best.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    pokertime said:

    As played fine. I'm not sure why fish thinks those bets are so big. Pretty sure I would have bet about the same. You just hope someone has something/doesn't believe you and you get value.

    River I just call. You bet small so you could have induced a bluff by a good player trying to blow you off AK or over pair and it's possible he has 55. He's never calling with worse except maybe 55 so shove would be a spew IMO. It's slow played AA/66/55 or bluff so call seems best.
    This villain is NEVER bluffing here.. or dare I say almost never.. Also think to yourself. What could he be bluffing with??? The board is rainbow and only 78 and 34 are straight draws on the flop. Board is paired.. really really bad spot to try to bluff given Dave raised in early position and bet flop and turn..

    If I were going to bluff dave I would rather raise the turn since the Ace is a great card for Dave to rep if he was barreling a hand like JT or QJ.. not wait til the river when the board pairs and dave bets again..
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    Easy shove. You can make the case for flatting aces full since we block A6. Kk is a mandatory shove hoping to get called by A6.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    I dislike the small river bet. Once the board pairs the 6.. a lot of his kx and ax are going to chop with your kx and ax. Your bluffs should put max pressure on him in these spots.

    Bigger river bet also makes it easy to get stacks in if you have coolered him. Since his river raise will leave very little money behind.

    You get 300..he raises 900..you shove for 600 more..he cry calls with 55 or A6 and you buy him a beer.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    edited December 2016
    Bigger river bet also makes it easy to fold a medium strength hand like AQ. you won't level yourself that you got raised Because you bet small.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Honestly i think the river play illustrates the difference between poker theory and play. No one plays as well at the tables as they do in forums and podcasts. When we start speculating how one pro would never overplay a boat vs another pro so we have to play defense with our monster hand, we forget that we're all humans who make errors and there is only so much mental energy we can put into playing poker. If you start playing defense when you might be grossly coolered, you're just loosing too much value, even i feel against other pros.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,450Subscriber
    If this is a pro that is capable of folding a boat it is a call because quads beats us. And 66 would play it this way.

    if it is anyone but a pro this is a shove.

    At 1st I thought this bet was too large. But this is a 5/5 game with stacks THAT deep then even gutshots have odds to call in this spot. It just depends on the stack sizes of the other players. If the other 2 players had $500 each I would have bet smaller.

    The river can go either way depending on the villain. If the villain is a notorious bluffer that pounces on weak bets then its the right play. If he cant fold an ace or a 6 then it is the wrong play and I would bomb it.

    So few Kxs in his range. More 6xs in his range busted draws, a couple boats.

    Your hand looks pretty strong when you bet the flop and turn here.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    Thehammah said:
    pokertime said:

    As played fine. I'm not sure why fish thinks those bets are so big. Pretty sure I would have bet about the same. You just hope someone has something/doesn't believe you and you get value.

    River I just call. You bet small so you could have induced a bluff by a good player trying to blow you off AK or over pair and it's possible he has 55. He's never calling with worse except maybe 55 so shove would be a spew IMO. It's slow played AA/66/55 or bluff so call seems best.
    This villain is NEVER bluffing here.. or dare I say almost never.. Also think to yourself. What could he be bluffing with??? The board is rainbow and only 78 and 34 are straight draws on the flop. Board is paired.. really really bad spot to try to bluff given Dave raised in early position and bet flop and turn..

    If I were going to bluff dave I would rather raise the turn since the Ace is a great card for Dave to rep if he was barreling a hand like JT or QJ.. not wait til the river when the board pairs and dave bets again..
    If he's never bluffing then it's a fold. I think the bluff is a very small part of his range and he more likely has a hand here. As always I'm just throwing out options since it's a discussion forum. A bluff is a bluff it doesn't really matter what he has. He could have air/A or KQ thinking he blocks some Ks etc. I've never played either of these guys so I just assume they float and bluff in spots. Like I said I'm imagining a spot where V thinks he can blow Dave off AK. I barely want to call but I don't think hero folding FH is what we need to worry about.
  • MasonIsAClown Posts: 102SubscriberProfessional
    one thing I think occurs a fair bit is the tendency to give rec players too much credit for their level of thinking/hand reading ability. Inversely, I think a lot of people don't give people who take the game very seriously enough credit for thinking/hand reading ability.

    If he's never bluffing it's still not a fold. He absolutely is raising 55/56/A6 though A6 should be pretty heavily discounted, especially depending on suit distribution, but even without considering that because it's usually in the muck on the flop for that sizing. It's just a decision of whether he's good enough to raise fold hands for value. A lot more players are capable of this in 2016 then in 2014 even. I also assume this is a guy who plays bigger a good bit? Just because he's in a 5/5 game that doesn't mean he only plays 5/5 and from Tuck's description and from listening to the guy talk on the podcast, I just don't buy for a second he's gonna blindly call off without figuring out what hand in Tuck's range he can beat.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    MasonIsAClown said:
    one thing I think occurs a fair bit is the tendency to give rec players too much credit for their level of thinking/hand reading ability. Inversely, I think a lot of people don't give people who take the game very seriously enough credit for thinking/hand reading ability.

    If he's never bluffing it's still not a fold. He absolutely is raising 55/56/A6 though A6 should be pretty heavily discounted, especially depending on suit distribution, but even without considering that because it's usually in the muck on the flop for that sizing. It's just a decision of whether he's good enough to raise fold hands for value. A lot more players are capable of this in 2016 then in 2014 even. I also assume this is a guy who plays bigger a good bit? Just because he's in a 5/5 game that doesn't mean he only plays 5/5 and from Tuck's description and from listening to the guy talk on the podcast, I just don't buy for a second he's gonna blindly call off without figuring out what hand in Tuck's range he can beat.
    I see what you are saying that he's value betting worse but still has a FH. I wasn't thinking that when I said fold. Still the same point that it's a call as a good player should not be stacking off with 3rd/4th nuts.
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