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Top of my range, can I fold?

Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
edited December 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
5/5 $1800 effective. V1 is older Asian man that seems to play pretty straightforward but I haven't seen a ton of his hand show down.
UTG opens to $30, V1 calls in MP, CO calls and hero looks at A T and calls
Flop ($130) T T 8
UTG bets $100, V1 calls, hero raises to $360
UTG folds and V1 shoves for $1800
Hero?
I lose to T8 and 88 and my question is whether or not he plays any other Tens this way. All other tens here I fold without too much thought but with AT I'm not sure. What do you think?
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Comments

  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    please tag the game size
    ty
  • Stonewalled Posts: 480Subscriber
    I think this is a call. The bet is bizarre no matter what he has, but I'd still think that shoving with 88/T8 is the most bizarre. There are 6 combos of hands that beat you (no fear, you have a 3-out redraw! :)), and 32 combos you beat KT/QT/JT/T9/J9, that equally might do something this strange.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,993AdministratorLeadPro
    I wouldn't fold here either. I never think he has T8 and even if he has 88 you have some equity. If you pop even a few combos of worse Ts and 8s full, you are so far ahead of worse Ts that its going to be a call given the pot odds.

    Bart
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    Snap call. Are you serious?
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    When we flop trips, dpecially with trips as these middleling cards, we have to be acutely aware of our kicker. With an ace kicker, we crush so many other trips it's ridiculous. T9s would be a much different story here.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,993AdministratorLeadPro
    iamallin said:
    Snap call. Are you serious?
    Let's keep it friendly please.

    Bart
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    Lol I cannot agree with you that it is a snap call. I called and he did in fact have 88 and of course I rivered quads.
    How much do player tendencies affect our decision here? My thinking was in line with all of you here. Are there some players though that we fold this to?
  • BartBart Posts: 5,993AdministratorLeadPro
    Jacklamb said:
    Lol I cannot agree with you that it is a snap call. I called and he did in fact have 88 and of course I rivered quads.
    How much do player tendencies affect our decision here? My thinking was in line with all of you here. Are there some players though that we fold this to?
    I don't think so to be honest. Given the pot odds you need 37.5% equity to call. Even if he has all of the 88 hands it's pretty close with him having one combo of an inferior T. One combo of inferior T w AT hands it's a slam dunk call. And even with all 88 and T8s with 2 combos of an inferior T it's a slam dunk call.

    See attachments.
    750 x 1334 - 370K
    750 x 1334 - 369K
    750 x 1334 - 370K
    750 x 1334 - 372K
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    Good breakdown there on pokercruncher. That puts it in perspective - thanks.
  • AnarchyDevil Posts: 16Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    i know you were beat this hand, i have been playing full time for about a year and from what i have seen every player regardless of how good , or nitty they are, all of them have a combined of about 5% of overplay, bluffs and spazz factor. this is to say, i dont think you can ever fold.
  • justfourfun Posts: 191Subscriber
    I would not call this a "snap call" situation - more of a reluctant "I have to call here" hand. You start the hand 360 bb deep. 6bb preflop then flop action goes 20bb; 20bb; 72bb; 334bb. At this point you don't know much about V1. The two best pieces of data you have about v1 are: 1) he started the hand with a decent chip stack and seems to play straightforward; 2) he has made an unusual bet of 334 bb. Because of his unusual 334 bb bet you call. I think if we talked to v1 right after this hand and asked him "why go to 334 there"? His response essentially would be that he is tired of losing his big flopped hands on later streets and so he would rather just get it all in on the flop. Thus, V1 is a weak player. Once we reach this conclusion I think we have to expand v1 range to include a10;k10;q10; j10; 9 10 and call
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    I did ask him that question. He said "because I have a full house!" It was a protection bet which makes enough sense with bottom full house. Yes he was a weak player but clearly good enough at betting large with his nutted hands.
    Anarchy, I'm guessing the 5% figure you're using just feels appropriate? Or do you have any quantifiable measure for it? I, too, find that there is a certain amount of spazz play in spots for you to not want to be hero folding a lot of spots when it's closer to a call.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    he didn't go allin because he is "good enough" but because he is super scared. if you showed him your hand he would have been happy if you just folded.

    the thing here is he will do the same with QT and KT at some frequency because he panics and wants to "protect" just like he wants to protect with 88.
    by 1Bart
  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    In these games bad straight forward players shove their full house because they don't want to counterfeited and lose their full house imo and there is enough in the pot. I think H raise is capped to 10x as that is what it looks like. No need to get out of line on a paired board with a caller in between.
    So if V notices that or thinks that, he wants it all in so he doesn't have a decision.
    I also feel it's not a snap call for your stack. You can find a fold here and it's one of those spots reguardless of the maths it's live play and it's a $1800 bet. Im not bluffing older guy playing straight forward has a monster.
  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    I honestly think a straight forward player is check calling to showdown all 10x that's not the same hand as yours. And would jam a later streets if filled up. I would be giving this player a range of. A10o, A10s, 10 8s and 88.
    That's give the H around 33% equity and not the correct odds to call. (Quickly thought of the maths in my head falling a sleep sorry if I get it wrong)

    A spazzing player jamming the flop I would then include a wider range of 10x and it would be an easier call. As in earlier posts.
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