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cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Played an unusual hand, and wanted some community feedback.

10/10NL game is 5 handed.

Villain is young player. Very very aggressive. I've played with him before, but not sure about my image in his eyes. Tonight, I'm probably perceived as playing tight. I have the image of a rec business guy.

He's been opening about 40% of his hands, and scooping a lot of dead money with post flop aggression. He both bets and calls light, and can be pretty creative with some of his lines. Very smart, and likely a decent / large winner, but with a ton of variance.

Effective stacks $2940

Villain MP raises 40
TAG calls on button
SB folds
Hero BB (JdJs) thinks for 5 seconds and calls.

Flop ($130): 9s6d4d
Hero Checks
Villain Checks
TAG bets $100
Hero Calls
Villain cuts out $400 and reraises
TAG Folds
Hero tanks
Hero cuts out $400
Hero announces All In and pushes out $2300

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Looks like an overplay to me.. I am not sure if laggy is calling you that light that you can get called by worse.. I think he folds all pairs that haven't setted that are worse than yours and calling with hands like 57dd, A9dd, that have combo draws.. and you are behind in equity against that range..

    If you think he is bluffing then I think calling his check raise is better to see what he does on the turn. Then there will be about 900 in the pot and he just bombs I think you can fold.. Because he is a laggy his range is just so wide...

    One question, had you seen him do this raise pre then check raise on flop line before? Players tend to do the same things they see as successful once and keep doing them regardless of what they represent.

    I doubt this guy has a big hand but if he does he has you crushed.. bigger pair than yours or two pair plus... If he is a good thinking player then he would be aware of his image and might play a big hand this way since he knows he gets played back at so much.. He traps you by taking a line that "normal" players can't because of his image..

    did he show set of 9s?

    Wendy
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I agree with Wendy and wouldn't raise here with stacks so deep, and nothing you beat will call your AI. I would prefer to call -- I think you have chances to win the pot later either by calling him down (as your hand is underrepped) or by representing a FD or SD if these scare cards come in.

    If you must raise/fold here, why not raise to $1100-1200? Same play but you can fold and save half your stack if he shoves.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Raise / folding is terrible. Remember the op's read on villian: good hand reader, not scared money, aggressive. He could easily call it off light here thinking hero is repping a draw, and if V is on a draw, he is forced into a bad spot. Plus, what value hand does an aggressive player c/r here? (Not much......)
  • Travisp33 Posts: 15Member
    Effective stacks $2940

    Villain MP raises 40
    Villain Checks
    Villain cuts out $400 and reraises

    Villain has overpairs/sets. Bet/fold ftw.
  • Seems like a pretty bad spot for the villain to check raise an overpair here if he is decent. Is there some sort of leveling war going on here 5 handed? It also seems unlikely that Villain is craising the flop with air or some sort of light draw like AK. You are risking an awful lot playing a game of Russian roulette. If called your equity has to be pretty bad.

    Did it ever cross your mind that this could have been some sort of merge where you might get better to fold and draws to call?

    Bart
  • cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
    Bart said

    Seems like a pretty bad spot for the villain to check raise an overpair here if he is decent. Is there some sort of leveling war going on here 5 handed? It also seems unlikely that Villain is craising the flop with air or some sort of light draw like AK. You are risking an awful lot playing a game of Russian roulette. If called your equity has to be pretty bad.

    Did it ever cross your mind that this could have been some sort of merge where you might get better to fold and draws to call?

    Bart
    It seems very difficult for villain to have me dominated at this point in the hand based on the flop check/raise.

    Don't his SLAG image, combined with the super wet board and button's TAG conservative style make sets somewhat unlikely and overpairs almost completely unlikely?

    Furthermore, doesn't my line represent a draw pretty much every time in his eyes?

    I see the merge-like qualities, but I think this is actually a value line. . . Only made possible by how weak/bluffy my line looks combined with villains capability to make thin calls.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    It seems like he didn't have anything ...but one of my points was that if that's true then why let him off the hook with his bluff? The line generally means he is weak.. like a missed AK and if you put him on a range of AK, AQ, AJ then why not just call and see what he does on the turn. Combo draws are in his range if he thinks the tag would bet fold to a check raise...but he is more likely to bet these hands too...

    My basic thought was that if you can't get called by worse then why make the overbet shove?

    Now there is one caveot... If he is so bad that he will call you with say 8s then he isnt a good player and our range analysis will be off.

    Wendy
  • cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
    wendyweissman said

    It seems like he didn't have anything ...but one of my points was that if that's true then why let him off the hook with his bluff? The line generally means he is weak.. like a missed AK and if you put him on a range of AK, AQ, AJ then why not just call and see what he does on the turn. Combo draws are in his range if he thinks the tag would bet fold to a check raise...but he is more likely to bet these hands too...

    My basic thought was that if you can't get called by worse then why make the overbet shove?

    Now there is one caveot... If he is so bad that he will call you with say 8s then he isnt a good player and our range analysis will be off.

    Wendy
    One reason to stick it in now is that there are a ton of cards on the turn. . . literally half the deck. . . that either:
    a) kill my action
    b) are great bluff cards for this particular villain to rep a completed draw
    c) improve villain's hand, sometimes as apparent blanks, and allow him to extract max value from my overpair

    Basically, it will be hard to get it in good on many turns.

    Remember characterization of our opponent: he is a very aggressive, winning player.

    As for calling with 88. . . I don't see that as a bad play from his spot at all. I'm actually counting on him to be GOOD enough to call me that light, if that makes any sense.
  • cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
    Bart said

    Seems like a pretty bad spot for the villain to check raise an overpair here if he is decent. Is there some sort of leveling war going on here 5 handed? It also seems unlikely that Villain is craising the flop with air or some sort of light draw like AK. You are risking an awful lot playing a game of Russian roulette. If called your equity has to be pretty bad.

    Did it ever cross your mind that this could have been some sort of merge where you might get better to fold and draws to call?

    Bart
    It's five handed with me, SLAG online winner, LAG/TAG online winner, TAG live grinder, and two random rec players. Game dynamics are pretty larcenous, I suppose.

    I'm counting on SLAG to be able to call me light.

    The fact that this is a merge did cross my mind, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a straight value opportunity vs. villain's odd line.
  • cl0r0x70 said
    wendyweissman said

    It seems like he didn't have anything ...but one of my points was that if that's true then why let him off the hook with his bluff? The line generally means he is weak.. like a missed AK and if you put him on a range of AK, AQ, AJ then why not just call and see what he does on the turn. Combo draws are in his range if he thinks the tag would bet fold to a check raise...but he is more likely to bet these hands too...

    My basic thought was that if you can't get called by worse then why make the overbet shove?

    Now there is one caveot... If he is so bad that he will call you with say 8s then he isnt a good player and our range analysis will be off.

    Wendy
    One reason to stick it in now is that there are a ton of cards on the turn. . . literally half the deck. . . that either:
    a) kill my action
    b) are great bluff cards for this particular villain to rep a completed draw
    c) improve villain's hand, sometimes as apparent blanks, and allow him to extract max value from my overpair

    Basically, it will be hard to get it in good on many turns.

    Remember characterization of our opponent: he is a very aggressive, winning player.

    As for calling with 88. . . I don't see that as a bad play from his spot at all. I'm actually counting on him to be GOOD enough to call me that light, if that makes any sense.
    But why would he check raise 88, though? To get you off of a 9? I just almost never ever see a dynamic here where a guy in a live game will check raise with a hand worse than yours for value. Backraises are one of the strongest plays that you can make in NL holdem just doesnt seem like a place where he is going to call you down light.

    Bart
  • cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
    Bart said
    cl0r0x70 said
    wendyweissman said

    It seems like he didn't have anything ...but one of my points was that if that's true then why let him off the hook with his bluff? The line generally means he is weak.. like a missed AK and if you put him on a range of AK, AQ, AJ then why not just call and see what he does on the turn. Combo draws are in his range if he thinks the tag would bet fold to a check raise...but he is more likely to bet these hands too...

    My basic thought was that if you can't get called by worse then why make the overbet shove?

    Now there is one caveot... If he is so bad that he will call you with say 8s then he isnt a good player and our range analysis will be off.

    Wendy
    One reason to stick it in now is that there are a ton of cards on the turn. . . literally half the deck. . . that either:
    a) kill my action
    b) are great bluff cards for this particular villain to rep a completed draw
    c) improve villain's hand, sometimes as apparent blanks, and allow him to extract max value from my overpair

    Basically, it will be hard to get it in good on many turns.

    Remember characterization of our opponent: he is a very aggressive, winning player.

    As for calling with 88. . . I don't see that as a bad play from his spot at all. I'm actually counting on him to be GOOD enough to call me that light, if that makes any sense.
    But why would he check raise 88, though? To get you off of a 9? I just almost never ever see a dynamic here where a guy in a live game will check raise with a hand worse than yours for value. Backraises are one of the strongest plays that you can make in NL holdem just doesnt seem like a place where he is going to call you down light.

    Bart
    After he checks that flop I feel that Villain's range is capped at 88. I also strongly suspect that he doesn't know that I know that. I think TAG's range is fairly wide because of position and the wet board, but tending towards weakish one-pair hands and draws. My line to this point in the hand looks pretty weak; I am massively underrepped at this point, and the smooth call on the flop screams "draw."

    Therefore, I think it's a great spot for villain to squeeze. We both might fold. Or he might get TAG off his hand, and get it heads up against my draw-heavy/light range in position where he can simply take it away on a lot of turns.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I am really at a loss then of what you are asking our opinion on. Are you trying to brag about a play or something? If you think this guy's range is so wide then why not three bet preflop with the likely best hand? At least there you are defining ranges more. Bart always like to say that as a pot gets bigger then players even more aggressive looser players tend to behave more ABC..

    I play so that I don't generally have to make super tough decisions. But then again I am not a pro and I don't play at this high a level..So the dynamics from your player pool are likely much different than mine.

    Given this though I just can't imagine that many players thinking at the level of what you thought he thought you thought that the TAG would do...yada yada yada...

    Oh and I have seen plenty of "good" players in bigger games shove with the nuts... thinking this looks like a draw hoping to get a call light.. If he really is a decent player then he would know this and fold everything that you beat..and only call with the nuts.. like set of 9s..

    Wendy
  • cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
    No, not trying to brag about a play or anything like that.

    It's a genuinely interesting hand to me, and I'm trying to solicit opinions on here and that "other" strat forum. You'll be happy to know that I'm getting lambasted in both places, but I do my best work when I'm going against the grain a bit. . . ESPECIALLY if it turns out that I admit I'm wrong.

    You're right about the leveling stuff. That's why I went out of my way to point out that this wasn't a typical player. Winning SLAG.

    FWIW, I agree that shoving with the nuts is usually transparent. However, remember that I first called the flop OOP. I think that set up a pretty unique dynamic.

    Thanks for the comments.
  • ChipChairmanChipChairman Posts: 41Subscriber
    so, your play was strictly for value? I think it is an overplay. Villain probably has something like a stra8 flush draw; or, 2 overs and FD. Might have the nuts? Doubtful considering board is somewhat wet.

    I think villain would be less likely to call with hands like 88 esp if he has 8d blocker. I don't think he ever get worse to call here... 9xdd maybe calls, but against that we are flipping. This hand, o me is slightly ahead way behind and you shove is a bluff.

    Anyway, this type of play is way above my head. Heh; nice play if you were right.
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