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Still Struggling with when to C-Bet

Little help please :-)
My table is pretty aggressive. I have a tighter image.

I raise in the small blind to $15 with KK.
4 callers. Flop A66.
I check. Last to act bets $60. Folds around. He shows me his 10 2.

How do I avoid this? Am I supposed to call that $60? Raise it?
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Comments

  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    You should have just Cbet and took it down. Can't be afraid of an A and while worse isn't likely to call there is no point getting fancy OOP with KK on an paired A high board.

    2/5? Stacks? I would have at least peeled one. It's fine to let someone bluff at it as they will likely give up but you have to know that and call!
  • BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
    Was the flop rainbow?

    I wouldn't cbet this board into 3 other people. And there are a few variables here whether or not the best play is to check call or check fold. Since the player is last to act on the FLOP, I may lean towards check calling one time, whereas if the player who bet was next to act on the flop (to your immediate left) and bet into the field I would lean towards check folding.

    If you want some help on Cbet bluffing there is great content on that topic here: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/cbet-bluff-matrix
  • taratarataratarataratara Posts: 10Subscriber
    I/2 game, $300 stacks, board had 2 diamonds

    I've listened to the c-bet bluff matrix a few times, number of players was why I made the fold.

    Thanks for the advice. I'm going to keep studying :)
  • BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
    tarataratara said:
    I/2 game, $300 stacks, board had 2 diamonds

    I've listened to the c-bet bluff matrix a few times, number of players was why I made the fold.

    Thanks for the advice. I'm going to keep studying :)
    I think positional awareness and the fact that the button is betting into 3 players are the two variables that mean the most in this spot.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    Roughly players will have an ace or a 6x in their hand ~1/3rd of the time considering card removal and the percentage of their range that calls a raise. vs 4 players this means you really can't bet.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Was the flop rainbow?

    I wouldn't cbet this board into 3 other people. And there are a few variables here whether or not the best play is to check call or check fold. Since the player is last to act on the FLOP, I may lean towards check calling one time, whereas if the player who bet was next to act on the flop (to your immediate left) and bet into the field I would lean towards check folding.

    If you want some help on Cbet bluffing there is great content on that topic here: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/cbet-bluff-matrix
    Wouldn't it still be better to bet fold than check fold if we aren't sure what to do and are going to fold KK that easy? I'm not saying all the time just if we are still learning and figuring our game out. Unless we have good reads/experience/history it seems we could be folding way too much.

    I prefer the check call as I'm specifically looking to let some bluff as worse shouldn't be calling me. If I had flatted last to act PF and the flop checked to me I would bet almost 100% of the time. Especially this flop. Nobody has a A, I win. Makes check folding KK so exploitable.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    No bet is profitable that's why checking is better. Do the math. It also induces bluffs.
  • BlackBoxEquity Posts: 165Subscriber
    tarataratara said:
    Little help please :-)
    My table is pretty aggressive. I have a tighter image.

    I raise in the small blind to $15 with KK.
    4 callers. Flop A66.
    I check. Last to act bets $60. Folds around. He shows me his 10 2.

    How do I avoid this? Am I supposed to call that $60? Raise it?
    Yes, call. If you are always going to fold when there is an overcard to your pair, then you are over-folding. If he fires the turn, then a fold may be in order with KK (since you calling has to make him think you may have an A). If he shows T2 bluff on the turn, sucks, but you BETTER file that in the memory and realize this guy is pretty bad (prob the majority playing $1/2 anyways) and adjust accordingly.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
    edited January 2017
    pokertime said:
    Bart said:
    Was the flop rainbow?

    I wouldn't cbet this board into 3 other people. And there are a few variables here whether or not the best play is to check call or check fold. Since the player is last to act on the FLOP, I may lean towards check calling one time, whereas if the player who bet was next to act on the flop (to your immediate left) and bet into the field I would lean towards check folding.

    If you want some help on Cbet bluffing there is great content on that topic here: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/cbet-bluff-matrix
    Wouldn't it still be better to bet fold than check fold if we aren't sure what to do and are going to fold KK that easy? I'm not saying all the time just if we are still learning and figuring our game out. Unless we have good reads/experience/history it seems we could be folding way too much.

    I prefer the check call as I'm specifically looking to let some bluff as worse shouldn't be calling me. If I had flatted last to act PF and the flop checked to me I would bet almost 100% of the time. Especially this flop. Nobody has a A, I win. Makes check folding KK so exploitable.
    Betting KK can't be right if you are never going to get called by worse and we aren't going to get an ace to fold. Think of the reasons why we bet.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Bart said:
    pokertime said:
    Bart said:
    Was the flop rainbow?

    I wouldn't cbet this board into 3 other people. And there are a few variables here whether or not the best play is to check call or check fold. Since the player is last to act on the FLOP, I may lean towards check calling one time, whereas if the player who bet was next to act on the flop (to your immediate left) and bet into the field I would lean towards check folding.

    If you want some help on Cbet bluffing there is great content on that topic here: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/cbet-bluff-matrix
    Wouldn't it still be better to bet fold than check fold if we aren't sure what to do and are going to fold KK that easy? I'm not saying all the time just if we are still learning and figuring our game out. Unless we have good reads/experience/history it seems we could be folding way too much.

    I prefer the check call as I'm specifically looking to let some bluff as worse shouldn't be calling me. If I had flatted last to act PF and the flop checked to me I would bet almost 100% of the time. Especially this flop. Nobody has a A, I win. Makes check folding KK so exploitable.
    Betting KK can't be right if you are never going to get called by worse. Think of the reasons why we bet.
    I get that. I'm saying if we are a more beginner/intermediate player and are willing to fold KK/ get lost in this spot shouldn't we just bet fold as to not to be exploitable. We got called PF, raked a small pot and can work on check calling/making a big check/fold in the future when we get better. Baby steps?
  • ddz Posts: 150SubscriberProfessional
    If you take a rote strategy of bet-folding KK on A-high flops into multiple opponents, I think you are going to lose far far more money then taking a selective check-call approach.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I agree that i'm not betting this flop, I'm also not calling. As much as I've started to get a rep as a bit of a station on here I think check folding is totally fine. You can play much tighter in a 3 way pot especially with the exact betting action which makes you the first to act after V bet. Also we should have some Ax here. I'm probably not C betting a hand like AJ OTF into so many people so we do have some hands to protect ourselves against V bluffing us.

    Think you played it fine. You are very handcuffed in your spot with people behind you.
  • Jack7777 Posts: 653Subscriber
    edited January 2017
    The problem is the initial raise is too small for this table. You don't want that many people seeing the flop. If you are getting four calls with premium hands, maybe consider betting 10X with premiums in this spot. You don't want to be out of position facing four callers. There was $9 in the pot when you raised to $15. That gives decent odds to the first caller, the rest will call with almost anything. It doesn't matter then what the flop is, someone is going to hit TP, decent draw or a rag A. Head up makes decisions on this flop much easier. The B is going to be wary of bluffing that flop, because he's not getting huge odds to bluff.

    As played, easy fold. The bluff was a sitting duck for 67,56 ss or a rag ace.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
    Jack7777 said:
    The problem is the initial raise is too small for this table. You don't want that many people seeing the flop. If you are getting four calls with premium hands, maybe consider betting 10X with premiums in this spot. You don't want to be out of position facing four callers.

    Number of opponents that you face shouldnt be a consideration when picking a raise sizing. Like I have stated before you want people to call.. The adjustment in raising larger could be correct but its not to thin the field but rather to get more money in the pot with the best hand (value).

  • Jack7777 Posts: 653Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Jack7777 said:
    The problem is the initial raise is too small for this table. You don't want that many people seeing the flop. If you are getting four calls with premium hands, maybe consider betting 10X with premiums in this spot. You don't want to be out of position facing four callers.

    Number of opponents that you face shouldnt be a consideration when picking a raise sizing. Like I have stated before you want people to call.. The adjustment in raising larger could be correct but its not to thin the field but rather to get more money in the pot with the best hand (value).

    If you are out of position in a five-way pot, would this be more plus EV long term? In this case, there is a pair and an A on the board. What if flop is 7,8,J double suited? Would you donk from the SB, call a pot sized bet from the B or raise fold? It just seems you are opening the possibility of getting in tough spots. Not disagreeing, just looking for more understanding of how to play this spot.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
    edited January 2017
    I just think you have to play range vs range, just like we have talked about in the last few weeks in 3 bet pots. And actually multiway spots create more of a truth serum scenario. That is to say if you cbet AA on a J78ss board into 4 people, a player who raises you next to act is liable to have a much stronger range than if you were against that player HU.

    Regarding "tough spots" we can play a hand in a way that makes our spot easier, but that doesnt make it the best approach. Lets say for example, we pick up AA and over 4 people we move all-in preflop..thats a pretty easy way to play it, but we all would disagree a horrible line for value. Or we could make a standard raise preflop with AA in the same scenario, and ship all-in on the FLOP OMC style..again easy way to play the hand but not going to be the most optimal.

    Bart
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I think we should do what creates the most profitable situation. I definitely don't like raising so big that we get 1, maybe two callers and sometimes just everyone folds. However, it is also less profitable to play vs multiple people. I would much rather be HU vs someone in a $200 pot than 4 ways in a $200 pot. However, I'd definitely rather be be 4 ways in a $200 pot than HU in a $50 pot.

    I think finding a good balance is important. People should be folding some % because if they are not that means you are missing value. However if people are always folding then you are just forcing people out when you have a hand you want calls with.
  • Jack7777 Posts: 653Subscriber
    I like what you said about range vs range. I could do a better job of basing my plays on ranges. I misplayed a big set yesterday because I overlooked range. My raise was too big and I took down the pot. But just a little thought would have exposed V could not be holding cards that could draw out with much frequency. Simply because to hold those cards, they would have 4B.
  • fozbo Posts: 104Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Jack7777 said:
    The problem is the initial raise is too small for this table. You don't want that many people seeing the flop. If you are getting four calls with premium hands, maybe consider betting 10X with premiums in this spot. You don't want to be out of position facing four callers.

    Number of opponents that you face shouldnt be a consideration when picking a raise sizing. Like I have stated before you want people to call.. The adjustment in raising larger could be correct but its not to thin the field but rather to get more money in the pot with the best hand (value).

    I think in order to not want to isolate at least a little bit with big pocket pairs is that you have to be able you fold overpairs, because facing 4 callers. You are getting outflopped pretty often
  • fozbo Posts: 104Subscriber
    edited January 2017
    Mispost
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