Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

The flop min-raise

FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,546Subscriber
2/5 100bb stacks

You raise A Q - MP, CO, BUT call

$80 FLOP 8 5 2 A very dry flop

You CB $55, MP and CO folds, BUT min-raises $110

So here is a situation we all face. Can you move your opponent off their hand or should you give up?
Lets say we know with incredibly accuracy our opponent has a 9x hand or a hand like 88....

Now correctly we should at least call the min-raise. But can we instead make our opponent fold? If so what is the best way?

3b the flop?
Call and bet the turn?
Call and XR the turn?
or just call and fold unimproved on the turn?

Comments

  • Beatsme Posts: 602Subscriber
    I find that I usually fold in this scenario. It may be the wrong thing to do but I just don't like playing the rest of the hand oop.... And to be honest I haven't really thought too much about this sort of spot.

    Reasons for folding we are oop and In theory the villain could have top set. More likely they have top pair or a small over pair.

    It could be very villain dependent... some villains will let go of top pair but only if you threaten their entire stack... and then some villains will never fold an over pair.
    Cards that improve our hand could theoretically improve their hand as well if they have a hand like A8.

    I guess if one of the main weaknesses of a specific player pool is that they call too much and over value hands than im not going to try a float here oop with AQ.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,546Subscriber
    With anything there is always a probability. 90% of the time in general a player will not raise a set on this flop. Dare I say 95% of the time. That is a dry board.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,243Member
    1) Eff. Stacks kinda suck as I can't really see a sizing you could choose for B/3B line, I'm mean... if hes a raise for info type maybe you could move him off 8x or 99 you did bet into a field as the PFR
    2) FPS a bit but vs non thinkers it might work
    3) if we pick up equity I wouldn't mind it.
    4) probably best.
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    edited January 2017
    I don't like cbetting into 3 guys with this little equity. Check fold flop. In your example, do you mean if he has a hand like 8x or 99? Either way I just give up. When people raise a dry flop like this he has to have something. You're betting into 3 players so you should be strong. You don't make money in this game trying to push people off hands they seem to like. You could try for the 3bet bomb bomb. Or call check/raise turn. But if some one has 99 you'll find people who just won't give their hand up.
    If you can see his hand as 87 let's say then I'd call and try to bluff if a king hits. A jack likely won't scare him so you're just drawing to A Q or K. Problem is you won't get value if you hit your card. You'd have to bet very small.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,243Member
    What about;
    5) c/r flop vs the button if he has shown a high frequency of betting when checked to
    6) call flop which might lead to a turn check at a high frequency and bet river on some but not all.
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    If buttons agg/steals a lot I much prefer a check/call. You allow the players between to reveal their strength and you can likely be ahead of the button.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,243Member
    Jacklamb said:
    If buttons agg/steals a lot I much prefer a check/call. You allow the players between to reveal their strength and you can likely be ahead of the button.
    The other players are not checking to the PFR so they basically reveal their hand strength right away, unless of course they are also paying attention---->which I highly doubt.
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    call lead if I do this.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,546Subscriber
    edited January 2017
    I like the responses above.

    Letmewin1 - good option vs specific opponents.

    Jackland - Normally I do agree with you about 3 opponents. Reason why I bet is because I have effectively 7 outs with the backdoor FD. I also have the King to bet the turn and river making me 11 outs. K8o, K5o, K2o is not in any of their ranges.

    I redid some #s here. We only improve ~12% of the time on the turn. This doesn't count bluffing the King on the turn and river. It doesn't count picking up a FD. With those two we win ~27% of the time. But we also have to collect.

    So I do think now folding > 3 betting > calling.
  • PBJTIME Posts: 345Subscriber
    Letmewin1 said:
    What about;
    5) c/r flop vs the button if he has shown a high frequency of betting when checked to
    6) call flop which might lead to a turn check at a high frequency and bet river on some but not all.
    Option 5 seems fine to me. After you check and the two players in between check, they probably don't have much.

    I don't like option 6. You raised preflop then check called on this flop. Your hand looks like what it is, two over cards. Your river bluff after a turn check/check is probably only working if a K comes.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,546Subscriber
    Yea a flop XR basically says hey I flopped a set pay me.. Similar to the bet/3b line just not as expensive.

  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,243Member
    PBJTIME said:
    Letmewin1 said:
    What about;
    5) c/r flop vs the button if he has shown a high frequency of betting when checked to
    6) call flop which might lead to a turn check at a high frequency and bet river on some but not all.
    Option 5 seems fine to me. After you check and the two players in between check, they probably don't have much.

    I don't like option 6. [b]You raised preflop then check called [/b]on this flop. Your hand looks like what it is, two over cards. Your river bluff after a turn check/check is probably only working if a K comes.
    I meant bet/call flop..
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited January 2017
    Fuzzypup said:
    I like the responses above.

    Letmewin1 - good option vs specific opponents.

    Jackland - Normally I do agree with you about 3 opponents. Reason why I bet is because I have effectively 7 outs with the backdoor FD. I also have the King to bet the turn and river making me 11 outs. K8o, K5o, K2o is not in any of their ranges.

    I redid some #s here. We only improve ~12% of the time on the turn. This doesn't count bluffing the King on the turn and river. It doesn't count picking up a FD. With those two we win ~27% of the time. But we also have to collect.

    So I do think now folding > 3 betting > calling.
    Math is misleading here -- the whole hand as played is an exploit. You have to know what you are exploiting and that determines the strategy. Then the number kick in. If, e.g. you have a ton of fold equity by calling and leading then do so. If villain habitually min raises to see where they are at, give them false information. The math is a tool that is essential, but opponents strategies and frequencies are what determine actions.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,546Subscriber
    What I usually find is that players, even @ 2/5, have a very hard time folding TPMK. They see a hand like Q9 with the 9 being TP as having a good enough kicker. I ask players about their hand when they play a hand really foolishly. 100% of the time I get a non-thinking response like "I thought he was bluffing" ok well what hand did you think he had? "I just thought he was bluffing" or "I have top pair" while giving me a dumb look like I'm the idiot.

    The thing about the math which dilutes the hand is that I forgot they can have us reverse dominated by X frequency depending on what the TP is. Their hand ranges changes. It really sucks when you exactly know what their hand is and there is nothing you can do.

    I ended up folding myself this spot because I knew the player. But it made me think about this scenario for some reason because of this particular player.

    I am thinking calling would be ok if the opponent will check the turn out of fear. In this case you are getting 4.5:1 and your 2 street equity is ~25%.... but he has to be passive. This guy was not. Younger dude wearing glasses. He liked to barrel.
Sign In or Register to comment.