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Another A7 hand.....

A7 seems to be my hand of the week....


2/5 game with effective stacks of 1150 (mine). I am in hour 4 of the session and I def. have a very tight, aggressive profile along with being up 650. I've been relatively card dead and except for a couple big hands, haven't done much. I've had a few speculative hands haven't gotten there on the flop, so I am sure I'm perceived as fit/fold. Villain has been at the table the entire time and thankfully, due to a quite unpleasant body odor, just moved from my immediate left to across the table. He has hit several huge draws that he wasn't receiving the proper price for a call and I've watched him 3bet only a handful of times.

One limper to me in the co with A7 offsuit without a diamond. I raise to 25 and V in the BB calls and the limper folds. Heads up.

Flop ($51 post rake) A64 all diamonds. V checks to me and I bet 35. V calls. At this point I am putting him on either weak A with a diamond or smallish PP with a diamond. I'm not in love with my kicker, but I think he would have raised had he hit the flop (unless he flopped the flush) due to their being plenty of cards that ruin his hand.

Turn ($121) 3h . Villain checks to me and I bet 70 with the intention of folding to a raise. V calls.

River ($261) 9h. Villain checks and I take a moment to think. I ultimately flip my cards over and he looks confused, but mucks. I thought about bet/folding the river here for thin value but with the opportunity to close the action, I didn't want to reopen to a bluff that I really couldn't call. I don't know that I get called by worse here. Playing scared? Proper play?

Thoughts appreciated,

Zach

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Since I am a nit I am folding A7 os even if I am in pos.. You are deeper so I can't really comment on the merits of raising preflop here. On the flop I think you need to bet. You have top pair and you need to bet to protect your equity in the pot if V has a diamond.. Once he calls I am not putting him on a small pair with a diamond.. on that board they are generally folding those hands. So I think your range analysis there is a bit off. I think it more likely he has either an ace or a big diamond like a K or Q

    On the turn when its a brick I am betting again. I think you can bet more here.. you bet a bit over half pot .. that gives V almost 3:1 70/190. If you bet closer to say 85 or 90 and you get raised you can be more sure he has a value hand. When you make a weak bet that isnt that much different than a strong one some players misinterpret this and may try to bluff. You have a hand you can't call with so I prefer to just bet normal.

    I don't mind the check on the river because now his line looks like an ace and you can't beat many aces because you raised with only a 7 kicker.. this is another reason why I don't like playing this hand.. you can't get three streets of value and you might be value owning yourself.. I think the river bet is a bit too thin.. UNLESS you have seen this player call down with a lot less. I do see this with some players and then its not a too thin river bet..

    You tweeted me that you think you get value owned too much.. If you made an adjustment not playing A7 for a raise as often to maybe AT or better that could make a big difference. There I am likely to bet the river more often since my kicker is likely to be good.

    Wendy
  • Hi Wendy -

    I do my fair share of value-owning, that is for sure. I have been making a conscious decision to try to bet as thinly as possible on the river more and more often, and I think that is a by product of that. I also have noticed that for the past 200 hours since making that change, my win-rate has gone up. Of course, 200 hours isn't a ton, but I am noticing a trend.

    I would never limp A7o nor would I call a raise with it, well, ever. With that said, I do think that with a tight, nitty image and a single limper, I will take the opportunity to raise here plenty. Not every time, but with the proper few left to act, I think this can be profitable and I will often take the blinds or take the pot on the flop with a cbet in heads up play.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    We have position, against a limper, with a hand that beats a limpers range and you want to fold it Wendy? Playing well in medium strength hand situations will make you a ton of money in this game.

    I think the river is fine. Maybe a bet can convince him that you missed your flush and he'd call another river bet but he probably needs at least a pair to make that call and we aren't even sure he has that. And your line is strong all the way so there would probably have to be some history/table dynamics to get a person to call super thin. I'll make hero calls here with just a pair but that's when my opponent takes a line that doesn't really make sense for the story he's trying to (now) sell.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    BradleyT said

    We have position, against a limper, with a hand that beats a limpers range and you want to fold it Wendy? Playing well in medium strength hand situations will make you a ton of money in this game.

    I think the river is fine. Maybe a bet can convince him that you missed your flush and he'd call another river bet but he probably needs at least a pair to make that call and we aren't even sure he has that. And your line is strong all the way so there would probably have to be some history/table dynamics to get a person to call super thin. I'll make hero calls here with just a pair but that's when my opponent takes a line that doesn't really make sense for the story he's trying to (now) sell.
    I am a tighter player for sure... I also play in shorter buy in games so I don't like being in spots where I might be pot comitted with a hand that is strong but only a bluff catcher essentially. That's me..

    That said I raised last saturday with A2 suited and bet three streets because villain in that hand was playing face up and I knew where I was in the hand. If you feel the same way against this opponent then go for it. As you said you are ahead of their range most of the time and the flop is so wet its hard to get raised w/o villain having a flush.

    Wendy
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    ZachZ-H said

    Hi Wendy -

    I do my fair share of value-owning, that is for sure. I have been making a conscious decision to try to bet as thinly as possible on the river more and more often, and I think that is a by product of that. I also have noticed that for the past 200 hours since making that change, my win-rate has gone up. Of course, 200 hours isn't a ton, but I am noticing a trend.

    I would never limp A7o nor would I call a raise with it, well, ever. With that said, I do think that with a tight, nitty image and a single limper, I will take the opportunity to raise here plenty. Not every time, but with the proper few left to act, I think this can be profitable and I will often take the blinds or take the pot on the flop with a cbet in heads up play.
    Then keep doing what you are doing.. As Bart said you want to get value owned around 50% of the time and that means you are betting thinly enough.. If you are doing that and your win rate has gone up then that's fabulous! I probabaly don't get value owned enough and that's something I am trying to work on. Now that I feel I hand read pretty good.. the better you hand read the more thinly you can bet..

    Wendy
  • Seems like a spot to check back to me. Its different if the river is a paint card where you feel like his flush draw may have paired up. Then I would bet really tiny. Don't worry about opening the raising up. Check raise bluffs on the river are so few and far between at these levels it is not worth the value lost in checking back in certain situations.

    Bart
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    this is interesting to me...At what point from the cutoff does raising Ace-rag offsuit become break even or unprofitable with a limper in the pot and 3 players yet to act?.As we get down lower, more and more aces beat us and we also cannot stand a re raise at any time from one of the 3 spots that is yet to act. Just curious what everyone's opinion is on this....If A7 off is profitable, then is A2, A3, A4?.....What if we were in the highjack or middle position with your average passive group to your left?
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Check back the river.

    I prefer folding pre with A7o here tbh (its close) and I am an aggressive player.

    This hand does not play well post flop and has little if any barrel equity. Ie. I'd rather raise 89 off suit in this spot.
  • ILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    Drew said

    this is interesting to me...At what point from the cutoff does raising Ace-rag offsuit become break even or unprofitable with a limper in the pot and 3 players yet to act?.As we get down lower, more and more aces beat us and we also cannot stand a re raise at any time from one of the 3 spots that is yet to act. Just curious what everyone's opinion is on this....If A7 off is profitable, then is A2, A3, A4?.....What if we were in the highjack or middle position with your average passive group to your left?
    I agree with the point. I think it's mainly adding unnecessary variance to the game. I seem to raise A9o there every time. A7, with semi-decent opposition, I think it's just easier to throw it away. If I do make it $25 with A7, it's not because I want to iso but because I want to pick up dead $12. I'd be more happy with folds then with the limper calling. As pointed out above, the hand doesn't flop well.
    I would almost be more comfortable overlimping 2 limpers, taking 5 way flop, then barreling in position based on texture. I know it's kinda weak, but I'm not interested in making much of a financial commitment with A7o. Just looking to pick up dead money if I can.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    ILYA said
    Drew said

    this is interesting to me...At what point from the cutoff does raising Ace-rag offsuit become break even or unprofitable with a limper in the pot and 3 players yet to act?.As we get down lower, more and more aces beat us and we also cannot stand a re raise at any time from one of the 3 spots that is yet to act. Just curious what everyone's opinion is on this....If A7 off is profitable, then is A2, A3, A4?.....What if we were in the highjack or middle position with your average passive group to your left?
    I agree with the point. I think it's mainly adding unnecessary variance to the game. I seem to raise A9o there every time. A7, with semi-decent opposition, I think it's just easier to throw it away. If I do make it $25 with A7, it's not because I want to iso but because I want to pick up dead $12. I'd be more happy with folds then with the limper calling. As pointed out above, the hand doesn't flop well.
    I would almost be more comfortable overlimping 2 limpers, taking 5 way flop, then barreling in position based on texture. I know it's kinda weak, but I'm not interested in making much of a financial commitment with A7o. Just looking to pick up dead money if I can.
    For the most part, I agree with both of you. I do think that in this instance, it was an ok play (of course, I am biased :-) ) The main reason behind itwas a tight, winning image on my part and a proven reluctance to enter pots I raised by the players left to act. They much preferred to overlimp and would only play raised pots with quite large hands. I also felt rather confident that I was well ahead of the limper. The way this scenario setup, there were plenty of hands that I would have raised as I think I would take the $12 the vast majority of the time and take the pot on the flop almost every other time from the limper.

    I'm not really a fan of overlimping here, preferring to either raise or fold, with folding being more common unless the situation dictates otherwise. By overlimping, IMO, we are asking the button to raise and we don't have a hand we can play profitably in this situation. I think we are significantly behind the range of a raiser with A7o and are throwing money away in an aggressive game.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    ILYA said
    Drew said

    this is interesting to me...At what point from the cutoff does raising Ace-rag offsuit become break even or unprofitable with a limper in the pot and 3 players yet to act?.As we get down lower, more and more aces beat us and we also cannot stand a re raise at any time from one of the 3 spots that is yet to act. Just curious what everyone's opinion is on this....If A7 off is profitable, then is A2, A3, A4?.....What if we were in the highjack or middle position with your average passive group to your left?
    I agree with the point. I think it's mainly adding unnecessary variance to the game. I seem to raise A9o there every time. A7, with semi-decent opposition, I think it's just easier to throw it away. If I do make it $25 with A7, it's not because I want to iso but because I want to pick up dead $12. I'd be more happy with folds then with the limper calling. As pointed out above, the hand doesn't flop well.
    I would almost be more comfortable overlimping 2 limpers, taking 5 way flop, then barreling in position based on texture. I know it's kinda weak, but I'm not interested in making much of a financial commitment with A7o. Just looking to pick up dead money if I can.
    I would limp if I was suited with the A7.. the value here is to over flush someone and I wouldnt want to raise them out of the pot. If the players left to act are tight and will fold hands like a9 or JT then I really like the iso raise. Many times the limper has a implied odds hands and will fold if no one else calls the raise.. then its just a +ev steal. Do that every couple rounds and that will certainly increase your win rate..

    Wendy
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    I'm not sure why we want to keep bloating the pot on the turn;
    of course, it's super opponent dependant, but in general i prefer a [bet/ check/ bet] line to [bet/ bet/ check], although we lose value from the draws? we can get looked up on river by some pretty weak value hands when the diamond misses...
    checking turn and betting river de-leverages the pot, which is good this deep with what rates to be a very marginal hand, but is still usually gonna be best. ( he's more likely to call with a weak value hand on the river than on the turn, when there isn't another street, and round of betting still to come)...
    It's not a hand we should want to go to war with, and the turn bet can put us in some awkward spots. still, you have to expect to run into those when you play A7.
    against a passive station, i don't dislike your line, though...
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