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Raising a field better - am I doing it wrong?

PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$2/5 200-1000

Villain 1 ($1000) Playing fairly aggressively. Opening a fair amount preflop. Multiway he'll often check and give up, but if he can get it heads up or if he calls a raise preflop he's been making some weird bluffs and playing aggressively. If he had TP or better I think he'd cbet this flop.

Villain 2 ($325) Somewhat stationy villain. Calls very wide preflop. Does slowplay sometimes. We had a 4 way single raised pot where we were both field players. I lead for almost pot into the PFR on a K83 monotone flop with bottom set. He just called QJss for the second nut flush and then shoved turn for not that big of a bet when the 3 paired (and I made quads). I think he would be himself if he had a set or 2 pair though b/c the PFR checked.

Villain 3 ($800) Straightforward villain. Calls a little light pre, but not very aggro post. When checked in position I think he would be weak kings, maybe 8's or 7's and probably decent draws like big flush draws. Doesn't play back much. I think $45 into $100 demonstrates weakness.

Hero ($1000) Tight image as I haven't got any cards for a while. Haven't made any moves at all. In fact, the only really big hand I had was the quads vs V2.

Villain 1 opens UTG to $25
Villain 2 calls in MP
Villain 3 calls OTB
Hero TspadeTclub calls in BB

$100
Flop: Kspade 8spade 7diamond
Hero checks, Villain 1 (PFR) checks, Villain 2 checks, Villain 3 bets $45, hero raises to $145?

Just to clarify, I'm trying to turn tens into a bluff here basically. Tens also has the advantage of having showdown value in case someone calls with the NFD or 7xss.

I really think Villain 3 is going to fold most of the time and unless villain 1 is trapping with a set I think he's folding too (he probably still bets a set on this board). I could just flat, but I don't want to let V3 win with some kind of weak king and I don't want to let V1 decide to get sticky with JJ/QQ or some kind of draw.

Unfortunately . . .

Hero raises to $145, PFR folds, Villain 2 shoves for $305 total, V3 folds. hero?

At this point it's $160 to win 595 which is 3.7-1 so I only need to be good ~21% of the time. It's such a weird play for him to backraise a king here b/c you'd think he'd bet AK or KQ. Would he really shove back KJ or KT? I also don't buy he's slowplaying a set after the PFR raises. So if even a small % of the time he has a hand like the nut flush draw or a combo draw I think I have to call.

Thoughts? Was the setup ok for this play, or would having a shortish stack in the middle make this a less good play?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    Yeah this is a really bad spot..

    I would lean towards NOT doing a raise of a field bettor when there is a flush draw possible on the board.. If villain doesnt have a flush draw it makes it look more like you do.. they will tend to call lighter.. you want them to fold lighter..

    given your line.. I think you have to call because his smallish bet looks polarized like a flush draw or a really big hand. If he has a big hand what could he have? KK (not likely) 87, 77 and 88... would he only bet 45 with AK or KQ not likely either.. so I give his range to be this

    7x ss, 88,77,78, some K7s and K8s 56ss and Asxs

    when you run the numbers even if he has a small portion of his range on a draw you have I think pot commiitted yourself..

    so how I have used the raise a field bettor is generally when I dont have a made hand but a draw.. and that draw is generally a straight draw or a combo draw.. I target the player who is betting as being more agressive (ie he will bet with a wider range) AND is good enough to fold.. so never ever try this with a calling station..

    capish?
  • AcquittalAcquittal Posts: 179Member
    Here are my thoughts on the concept of "raising the field better."

    1) You want some equity. It doesn't have to be a flush or straight draw, but you want more than two outs to improve. My ideal situation is something like QJ or A3s on an 852 board.

    2) You want a board that can bring scare cards on the turn and river. Here, except for an ace, there are no good scare cards to come. If you put him on a king, then you shouldn't be trying to get a "stationy villain" off of top pair with only a half-pot-sized bet. And if you put him on a draw, then most of the "scare" cards complete his hand rather than scare him. This is why Bart loves QJ on that 852 board. Aces and kings are the ultimate scare card to someone betting a hand like 89, 77, or 66 on that board. And Qs and Js hit your hand. You have 15 "outs."

    3) You should choose someone deeper than 60 big blinds. When villain makes it $45 here, with $100 already in the pot, you only have about a pot-sized raise left (once you call his $45, there's $190 in the pot and he has $210 behind). This hugely reduces the fold equity of your flop raise, since villain knows that he won't have to face any big bets on the turn or river. And it makes it impossible to barrel scare cards because, as you point out, on the turn you'll be giving the villain 3.7 to 1.

    4) As Wendy points out, dry boards are better than wet ones. You want a fold; don't make this play when villain is likely to put you on a draw.

    5) You want a hand with less showdown value. On the hand above, your pocket tens have a ton of showdown value if your villain would make this bet with draws (and if he wouldn't then his range is full of kings and you should fold). Don't raise the field better AS A BLUFF when you're ahead of his range. If you're raising on the board above, you should be raising for value to get called by weaker hands (i.e., draws). You shouldn't be trying to fold those hands out. The same applies to A8 on the 852 board.

    That's how I approach this concept. But I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of others.

    J.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I think maybe you guys read the hand wrong.

    Both the Pfr and the guy who bet on the button had 150bb+ stacks.

    The guy who backraised was a 60bb stack who checked back after the Pfr had checked, which was unexpected.

    I don't really expect the Pfr to ever call. If I just call the 45, its very hard for me to fold out a weakish king unless spades come in because of have to basically check turn, hope he checks and then bomb river.
  • AcquittalAcquittal Posts: 179Member
    PokerIsFrustrating said

    I think maybe you guys read the hand wrong.

    Yup, I read it wrong. I think you're right that this has to be a call on the river. Even against a range of 88, 77, and 87s, you're getting almost the correct odds to call. Throw in some draws and it's an easy call.

    I still don't like this spot for a bluff against villain 3 on the flop though, for several of the reasons in my original post: You don't have any equity against a K; he may put you on a draw; and you have showdown value if he's on a draw.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    So are you just calling and evaluating? I don't think I can fold now. It just kinda sucks because I guess I should call flop and then check/fold turn.

    If the turn goes check/check maybe I get paid off by an eight, but a lot of times I'll be betting into a pot controlled king.
  • AcquittalAcquittal Posts: 179Member
    I think you should fold on the flop. You're behind his range and there are two players left to act.

    I think you should also think about three-betting preflop.

    J.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I think Aquittal pretty much summarized all there is to know about raising a field better.
    The value of this move comes from realizing fold equity, so the main question is: do we have fold equity in this spot? In the example above, the board is very wet, so I don't think circumstances are great.
    Moreover, Aquittal's first point is important here. TT is not a great hand to make such a move, because we only have two outs and there are basically no good turn cards for us.

    (I disagree with point 5, however, at least in this hand example.) It's correct that we don't want to "waste" a hand with showdown value for such a move, but this is only relevant if we can expect to ever reach the showdown. If we have to fold on the flop as the hand is too weak to continue, then we don't really have any showdown value.)
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    So I am folding a pair bigger than 2nd pair vs a Pfr who checked, a field better who checked behind and a fairly straighforward guy who bet less than half pot after 3 people checked on a very wet board where he really shouldn't slowplay?

    I have showdown value in that I beat all of his draws.

    Are you folding kj here then? I don't think kj beats many more hands than tt.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    I would call and see what villain does on a later street..

    wendy
  • AcquittalAcquittal Posts: 179Member
    PokerIsFrustrating said

    So I am folding a pair bigger than 2nd pair vs a Pfr who checked, a field better who checked behind and a fairly straighforward guy who bet less than half pot after 3 people checked on a very wet board where he really shouldn't slowplay?

    I have showdown value in that I beat all of his draws.

    Are you folding kj here then? I don't think kj beats many more hands than tt.
    No, I'm not folding KJ here. But I disagree that KJ is similar to TT on this board. First, and most importantly, KJ eliminates a third of villain's kings, so it skews his range much further towards draws. Second, we now chop with KJ and beat KTs. Third, we have an additional out if we're behind.

    If you pokerstove the two scenarios, it becomes very clear. If we give the villain a range of AK, KQ, KJ, KTs, all spade suited aces, and all spade suited connectors, then KJ has 38% equity and TT has only 24% equity. If the jack is a spade, the equity goes up to 40%. In other words, the two hands aren't remotely comparable.

    Against most villains, I would flat KJ and hope for a brick on the turn. But without a better read, I'm folding TT. I only have 24% equity and there are still players left to act.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Agree that KJ is way better than TT.
    I would also mostly fold TT here due to our poor position and the fact that there are hardly any good turn cards for us?
    If I really feel like I want to get fancy, I'd rather call the flop and make a move on a blank turn.
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