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2/5 NFD in a huge pot 300bb effective

martinst-pierre Posts: 8Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
hero: 1500$ 25 y/o wearing hoddie and cap. winning image / playing a TAG game, tight OOP...somewhat laggy IP.

Rich: 2k 60 y/o white guy who plays pretty tight and well. One of the better older player that I've seen at this casino. He'll make iso raises IP and cbet and seems to know where he's at in general.

young guy: 450$ He has been on ''mini tilt'' for 15 min after loosing a big pot.

Dynamic: Action table...no family pots. Mix of decent players and recreational ones (who are on my left).

Hero hand: Ad Td

2 limps, young guy limps, Rich makes it 45$ from the CO, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, young guy calls....5 to the flop!!!

FLOP: Qc 9d 6d (pot 235$)

sb checks, bb checks, young guy checks, Rich bets 80$, hero raises to 240$, folds around to young guy who shoves for 390$ total, Rich calls 310$ without much thought, Hero tank and calls 150$

Turn: 4c (pot 1405$) (Hero with 1065$ behind)

Rich bets 600$, hero folds


My toughts on the hand:

Pre: should be fine on the BTN really deep vs an opponent who can easily isolate with hands like KQ/QJs/88.

Flop: When Rich lead small there I tought he either had a draw, a TT/JJ that wants to see where he's at...or top set maybe. I think he's going to bet much bigger with TPTK or KK+ and prolly a bit bigger with a flopped set. So I decided to raise flop and probably fold to a b/3b depending on the sizing. If one of the other players was planning a check/shove with Qx then so be it...they are not really deep and the pot is really bloated.

When the young guy shoved for 390$ I was pretty happy since I figured that would make Rich fold...but to my surprise he called rather quickly. I debated shoving when it got back to me but decided to draw to my flush really afraid of top set.

Comments

  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    Looks like old guy has a monster, as your flop raise and call looks pretty strong.

    As for preflop, do you ever want to iso the old guy with ATdd? Seems to me with stacks this deep, this high-card hand does better in a 3-bet pot heads up or with only two opponents than multi-way. Did you consider a preflop raise to $150? Seems like the hand may play out easier, but I'm not sure.
  • I didn't really considered 3betting but I like the idea...the elements are present. I'm not used to live poker yet and playing 300bb deep so I guess I wanted to keep the pot relatively small and go from there.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    Is calling so bad on the button here with good pot odds and a draw to the nuts? Still good enough odds, I believe if the short stack shoves and Rich calls for your draw to the nuts.
  • BigBadBug Posts: 7Member
    I kind of like isolating Rich preflop, too. With ATs, it's seems that you're much better off HU against Rich's range alone than against 4 other players. You'll have position and you're deep, so I don't mind bumping the pot up to get HU.
  • ILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    I'm going to begin by saying this... Everyone says now that 2+2 is just a bunch of hacks, so it's much worse than it used to be. You know, I begin to understand why. I'm reading some of these strategy posts, and I just see many people making many bad decisions. I then can't help myself but sound like a hack myself.

    So, I am going to Apologize in advance for this and likely future posts!

    I think you made a mistake on every street...
    I do not agree with cold calling 9x raise preflop with a drawing hand. Why? Why get yourself involved in a huge pot where you know it's goint to cost you Much to make your hand. Which you will not often make. At least with a pocket pair you're one and done - miss the flop and fold. This hand will drain your stack. I would just fold it for 45. 3-betting it? You guys are insane. An old "plays pretty tight and well" guy raises to 9x and you gonna 3-bet him light, good luck with that.

    Flop: Let me just say here that the guy has AA or KK. Bottom of his range is AQ which is the same as AA. He is not betting smaller because he is weak or because he flopped the nuts. He is betting smaller because he is deep and has 4 young idiots in the pot with him, and he wants to see what's going on. And you decide to semi-bluff raise a dry flush draw vs a guy with an overpair. Much worse, you have 3 other people to act behind you. So you are just asking to get shipped on by one of them with a set or Q9s. You need to call the smallish bet to take the draw and hope no one raises back. Additional upside - someone may overcall with a lower draw, which is great.

    Turn: You have now put yourself in a position where you have to call off 600 to draw (see preflop mistake above). The guy is still betting an overpair. Because you didn't reshove flop, he correctly puts you on a draw or a worse hand than his. He may also be good enough to understand that he may be beat by the all-in, so he needs to recoup that loss via a side pot. The proper odds math dictates that you call 600 and fold when you miss. Assuming the guy won't be able to fold for you last 465 if you hit. It's ugly but proper. Hence my preflop argument for not getting yourself into that spot with a drawing hand.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I have to pretty much agree with Ilya here. This guy is rasing a few limpers to 45 in a 2-5 game. If he is a pretty ABC player this is almost always a big pair..AT even suited and in position really doesn't do well against a range of AQ, AK, JJ+

    With your nut draw on the flop I don't mind a call but certainly given I think the range of the preflop raiser is a big pair at worst he has KK or AA maybe even AQ as Ilya says. Why would I raise? Is he really folding these hands on this board? I don't think so. Now most times someone has made a big raise pre and makes a small bet on the flop the either missed or has a really big hand ...like a set of Qs..

    just call... and just maybe you get some schmo to come along with you that has a worse draw.. Hit the draw then pound it.

    The fact that you had to fold your nut draw is in mho just a dissaster... especially when you could have drawn to it relatively cheap...

    Wendy
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Big Bad Bug said

    I kind of like isolating Rich preflop, too. With ATs, it's seems that you're much better off HU against Rich's range alone than against 4 other players. You'll have position and you're deep, so I don't mind bumping the pot up to get HU.
    If the player is an older gentlemen who plays ABC and he open raises to 9x he almost always has a top 1 or 2% of hands.. Almost always.. Why iso this range??? You want to iso a range that is wide to play them heads up in pos when your range is better not worse..

    AND throw in the mix that you have essentially an implied odds hands.. you want as many players and their soon to be dead money in the pot to help pay you for the priveledge..

    Seems like you guys are thinking short stack tourney theory and not Deep cash game..no?

    Wendy
  • thanks for sharing your thoughts ILYA, I really welcome your criticism. I don't have much to say except that I can see why flatting pre will be marginal at best and raising flop can't put me in a difficult spot.
  • Like I said at the beggining I've seen this isolate from LP a few times...He could have med pocket pair easily, as well has KJs type hand or AJo...and the sizing isn't all that unusual.
    I play online tournaments for a living and I'm new to live so blunders like this are to be expected I guess :(
  • garagamaster Posts: 38Member
    There's no problem calling the old guy iso with ATdd if you expect the pot to be multiway a fair % of the time. Playing it HU vs him would be hard as every time we flop a pair we're only bluffcatching vs his range given his sizing. 3-betting is terribad cuz we're essencially bluffing and our hand plays well MW.

    On the flop, it's not even close. Just call as we're getting bizarrely good odds to the flush and the A should be good a high % of the time. If some insane action happens after you call, just evaluate your odds and play accordingly. There's no need to raise him cuz If his range is so weak when he bets 1/3rd of the pot, it's not gonna be tough to get him out of the hand in later streets if we miss and we're HU.

    As played, I really don't mind shoving the flop, huge variance but it's fine if we add some fold equity vs the old guy. We have huge equity vs both guys ranges. OTT, just cry and fold.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Preflop: There are a lot of good reasons to call. I do not think it is that close unless you play fit or fold. If that's the case then folding is ok.
    1) We have positional advantage
    2) We have skill advantage
    3) We have a hand that draws to the nuts
    4) We are deep
    5) We may have the best hand

    3-betting this hand preflop is a disaster. We get every worse hand to fold and only get better to continue. Against a decent winning player we should only be three betting garbage or the nuts here.

    Flop: I prefer to flat here as we are getting the odds to draw and we have the most fold equity on the turn or river.

    Turn: Pretty gross mathematically and I would fold.
  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    Skinnybrown said

    Preflop: There are a lot of good reasons to call. I do not think it is that close unless you play fit or fold. If that's the case then folding is ok.
    1) We have positional advantage
    2) We have skill advantage
    3) We have a hand that draws to the nuts
    4) We are deep
    5) We may have the best hand

    3-betting this hand preflop is a disaster. We get every worse hand to fold and only get better to continue. Against a decent winning player we should only be three betting garbage or the nuts here.

    Flop: I prefer to flat here as we are getting the odds to draw and we have the most fold equity on the turn or river.

    Turn: Pretty gross mathematically and I would fold.
    1. No. We have absolute position but our relative position sucks. Post flop folks typically check to the raiser, so we are first to act after the preflop raiser. If the PFR bets and we call with a draw, we can be raised and re-raised by the limpers who initially checked.

    2. We hope. How this hand was played makes me wonder,

    3. Would he get paid off though? Are the limpers coming along to overflush? Is a 60year old tight player going to pay us off. Is Mr. Mini-tilt going to limp-shove?

    4. What are the stacks of the limpers? Mini-tilt guy who we might overflush is NOT deep for that raise size.

    5. Doubtful

    IMO, preflop this is a fold.
    OTF this is a marginal call and pray you don't get raised.

    ILYA is correct on every point.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    wendyweissman said


    just call... and just maybe you get some schmo to come along with you that has a worse draw.. Hit the draw then pound it.

    The fact that you had to fold your nut draw is in mho just a dissaster... especially when you could have drawn to it relatively cheap...

    Wendy
    Agreed Wendy...I am glad others could explain it better than me but my feeling in this position is to only call the flop and reevaluate if you miss on the turn or get raised. When we play a draw in position and get good odds it seems optimal once we call the PFR. I especially like the discussion of whether to call or fold preflop. It is probably a leak of mine but I would always call here regardless of how tight the PFR'er is and that is the whole point that we have a draw when we don't flop better than a ten.
  • I agree with a lot of the other poster's sentiments here--I would call the flop most of the time and if he really is weak just bet the turn when checked to. There also is the added value of sometimes keeping in smaller flush draws behind.

    In LA, if these numbers are accurate, you do not even have the option to reraise the flop. You raised it $160 and the AI is $150 more. Most casinos use the 100% rule in order for a player in your position to reopen the betting. With that being said I would interpret Rich's flat as extremely strong. In reality because of your ace blocker if his hand isn't a set it is KK a lot, and if you are allowed to shove back the pot will be something like $2470, $1065 to call. I wouldn't commit my stack here leaning on fold equity when most of the time with his one pair holdings he bets larger on the flop.

    Bart
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