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$2/$5: 5-Bet Sizing with AA 200BB Deep

$1000 eff. CO opens $15, I 3-bet AA to $60 OTB, SB makes it $155. Assume SB is an average recreational player. How should we size 5-bet to maximize the likelihood of V stacking off?
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Comments

  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    I like making it $350 here. It will be difficult for JJ or QQ not to call. Then you can make it $350 again on a low flop (which will seem small and again force a call by those hands) and remaining $300 on turn, which they'll also feel obligated to call. Voila, a full stack.
  • DrSpace Posts: 712Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    If cutoff folds strongly consider flatting against many villains. 5 bet ranges at 2/5 are AA and some KK. You block and A flopping and can still get the money in post flop. Cutoff calls its a new ball game.

    Especially in this spot you are winning the information war big time -- raising a 15$ cutoff to 60 can be done very wide. We almost always get the money vs KK no matter how we play. Our expectation vs other possible hands is likely higher if we flat.

    If you play with folks a lot and actually have a range here you can raise, but that dynamic just does not exist live @ 2/5.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I don't see many people cold 4 bet and plan to fold. I'd make it like 330
  • Idlecaillou Posts: 121Subscriber
    What is the stack size of the small blind ? I think that's pretty important if we are trying to determine if he will stack off ?
  • Idlecaillou Posts: 121Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    If he is 200bb deep then I am flatting if the cut off folds. But let's say he is shallow at 350 or 400. Then I think he is almost committed and 5 betting gets him all in. I agree with early comments 5 bettting kinds of turns our hand face up if he doesn't jam pre flop and maybe he finds a fold
    Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    edited March 2017
    .

  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    Sorry, I forgot to mention this but yeah CO folded in a hurry. Anyway, those recommending a flat... we are not raising postflop, just getting it by either calling or betting flop and turn, right?
  • Checkindark Posts: 13Subscriber
    What makes the flat even better is youre on the button, so if villain cbets for value you can raise to get money in by turn, you get them to continue with at least one cbet bluff if they 4 bet with AK and whiff, and if they check an overpair youre still in position to get money into the pot by betting all 3 streets. 5 betting pre alot of the times youre going to get it in with QQ+ but some of the times the villain finds hero folds because are hand is pretty face up.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    If you want to trap with aces, trapping with them postflop is better than preflop. I'd almost always 5 bet aa but consider checking one or 2 streets postflop if required.
  • misterbasicmisterbasic Posts: 62Subscriber
    I would 5-bet small to something like 300-350 like the other posters said earlier. The SB is probably holding QQ+ or AK if he's 4-betting as a rec player.

    I've 5-bet small in similar scenarios in 2/5 and have gotten 6-bet jammed on by QQ, KK, and even AKs before. I'll never forget this one hand where I had AA with 950 effective and made a near min 5-bet (490) over some younger asian girl's 4-bet (265 from 80), which made her go into the tank for 3 minutes and then she jams, which was very strange because everyone else who ever 6-bet jammed into me have always done it instantly. Never showed me what she had but I was good and doubled up.
  • LesterDiamondLesterDiamond Posts: 152Subscriber
    iamallin said:
    If you want to trap with aces, trapping with them postflop is better than preflop. I'd almost always 5 bet aa but consider checking one or 2 streets postflop if required.
    What percentage of people playing 2/5 5bet anything other than AA? <1%?

  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    What percentage of people playing 2/5 think about what other 2/5 players' 5 bet range looks like?

    I would stay one step ahead..5 bet aces and 5 bet some bluffs as well against some of the 2/5 nits
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    edited March 2017
    So I have thought about this spot a bit.

    When it looks like our value range is narrow but we hardly have any bluffs at all, find out how players respond to that, are they stacking off anyway? Well then just continue to have a narrow value range and 0 bluff range.

    If instead you notice some people start folding in these spots, then it's time to add bluffs. A lot of bluffs even.

    My guess is most average 2 / 5 players would stack off anyway. And some that don't, do so because they have learnt to be nits. Just start punishing them with bluffs.

    Basically imo, the correct adjustment to people making big lay downs against you isn't to stop value betting, it's to find more bluffs to exploit their over folding tendencies.
  • LesterDiamondLesterDiamond Posts: 152Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    iamallin said:
    What percentage of people playing 2/5 think about what other 2/5 players' 5 bet range looks like?

    I would stay one step ahead..5 bet aces and 5 bet some bluffs as well against some of the 2/5 nits
    So your contention is that 5betting pre flop 200bb deep is not obvious as AA >98% of time to any person with a pulse? As for your latter comment, in your experience, when a player of any caliber 4bets at 2/5, do they usually fold to a 5bet?

  • misterbasicmisterbasic Posts: 62Subscriber
    If villain has KK, almost all 2/5 players will ship it pre-flop so why not 5-bet the AA and get it in now?

    A lot of villains will find it very difficult to fold QQ as well. The more adventurous ones will even go with their AKs.

    5-bet seems like the most practical move IMO.
  • MastaC707 Posts: 93Subscriber
    Min raise with AA. give them a chance to raise. Only the nittiest of nits are going to fold. And they wouldn't be cold 4betting anything other than AA anyways. So they will either raise or call. But it would be a shame to have a scary board that shut them down. Raise now.

    Masta--
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    iamallin said:
    What percentage of people playing 2/5 think about what other 2/5 players' 5 bet range looks like?

    I would stay one step ahead..5 bet aces and 5 bet some bluffs as well against some of the 2/5 nits
    I understand your point about having more bluffs in your general range against nits. However, I would almost never ever 5bet bluff a tight player with the action as described. Way too often he's showing up with AA or KK, and you're just handing him half your stack.
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    edited March 2017
    LesterDiamond said:
    iamallin said:
    If you want to trap with aces, trapping with them postflop is better than preflop. I'd almost always 5 bet aa but consider checking one or 2 streets postflop if required.
    What percentage of people playing 2/5 5bet anything other than AA?
    LesterDiamond said:
    iamallin said:
    What percentage of people playing 2/5 think about what other 2/5 players' 5 bet range looks like?

    I would stay one step ahead..5 bet aces and 5 bet some bluffs as well against some of the 2/5 nits
    So your contention is that 5betting pre flop 200bb deep is not obvious as AA >98% of time to any person with a pulse? As for your latter comment, in your experience, when a player of any caliber 4bets at 2/5, do they usually fold to a 5bet?

    Spicy

    :kiss:
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    edited March 2017
    So you guys are saying they never fold after 4 betting but we still shouldn't 5 bet with aa because we are never 5 bet bluffing in this spot and so they could fold?

    You can't have it both ways. Your opponents aren't at once not capable of folding after 4 betting but at the same time capable pf realizing your 5 bet range is aa and fold after 4 betting.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    edited March 2017
    ...
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