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.50/$1/$2 -- Cold 4! TT 140BB Effective

MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
edited March 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Live .50/1/2. We're about $140 deep. Opener & main villain both over-aggressive regs who float 3! more than half the time, and have 3! ranges between 9-18% depending on context. Figured main villain would flat the 4! w/ alot of his range too & I could shove or x/c ai most flops. I have no clue of 5! range so just assume JJ/AK for someone a bit spewy. I planned to call a shove despite it probably being thin at best.

I wonder if I'm turning my hand into a bluff without more of a preflop history/dynamic though? We don't have too much history of 4! eachother, but definutely some 3! pots. I'm generally viewed as nitty pre. Large PFR are standard in this game.

Hero (BB - $140) T T

Fold x 3, MP opens $6, Villain 3! to $22, Fold x 3, Hero 4! to $52
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Comments

  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 207Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    I think I'd prefer to make this play with something like 89s T9s. The problem with TT is that too many flops are going to contain over cards and if you get called when you shove the flop as planned you're just crushed. Also, just because they're spewy, laggy, or whatever doesn't mean they always or mostly have crap, a 3bet is still a 3bet. I think your 5 bet range above JJ/AK is pretty accurate. I also think that one or both of them are going to show up with those hands often enough to make raising a mistake. If you really think they're full of shit I think you'd be better off just calling pre-flop and check raising the flop on any low board. Yes, they could still have JJ-AA but at least they'll still have AK/AQs and other bluffs in their range as well.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    deadinaditch said:
    I think I'd prefer to make this play with something like 89s T9s. The problem with TT is that too many flops are going to contain over cards and if you get called when you shove the flop as planned you're just crushed. Also, just because they're spewy, laggy, or whatever doesn't mean they always or mostly have crap, a 3bet is still a 3bet. I think your 5 bet range above JJ/AK is pretty accurate. I also think that one or both of them are going to show up with those hands often enough to make raising a mistake. If you really think they're full of shit I think you'd be better off just calling pre-flop and check raising the flop on any low board. Yes, they could still have JJ-AA but at least they'll still have AK/AQs and other bluffs in their range as well.
    Yeah, I considered flatting & keeping his full range in there, but decided the disadvantage of playing OOP on many boards with overs in a 3-4 SPR spot vs a barreler was not ideal.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    This is a hand that's never easy and very situational. You basically need to flop a set to their overs or have and over pair to a low board and take it down vs their AK. If you get shoved on PF or on a 248 flop your going to hate your life. I'm fine just calling PF and then figuring out the flop.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    pokertime said:
    This is a hand that's never easy and very situational. You basically need to flop a set to their overs or have and over pair to a low board and take it down vs their AK. If you get shoved on PF or on a 248 flop your going to hate your life. I'm fine just calling PF and then figuring out the flop.
    What do you do on Jxxss Qxxr etc. vs. a standard CB? Calling planning to fold turn? Feels kind of exploitable vs aggressive foes but it seems like a slightly better line than x/c off stacks for two streets on a bad board.

  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    MonadPrime said:
    pokertime said:
    This is a hand that's never easy and very situational. You basically need to flop a set to their overs or have and over pair to a low board and take it down vs their AK. If you get shoved on PF or on a 248 flop your going to hate your life. I'm fine just calling PF and then figuring out the flop.
    What do you do on Jxxss Qxxr etc. vs. a standard CB? Calling planning to fold turn? Feels kind of exploitable vs aggressive foes but it seems like a slightly better line than x/c off stacks for two streets on a bad board.

    It's a balancing act. Calling a 3! With the bottom of your range and calling a decent size flop bet when there is an over can be a leak. You basically have to know V will fire once at flop and give up without a hand (AK that misses) if he even cbets a miss to begin with. This is very situational and V dependent. Super lag bets 1/3 the pot OTF call. OMC nit bets 3/4 pot OTF fold. The old it depends.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I don't like cold calling 3 bets in general. I've talked about this in some of my online videos but the problem is when you are start splitting your ranges into a calling range and a 4 betting range have some hands and weak hands in both becomes very hard to do. So i prefer to just play my whole range as a 4 bet vs a raise and a 3 bet in front of me. So i would 4 bet this hand. I would size smaller with the 4 bet. We don't want to commit ourselves.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited March 2017
    stayinschool said:
    I don't like cold calling 3 bets in general. I've talked about this in some of my online videos but the problem is when you are start splitting your ranges into a calling range and a 4 betting range have some hands and weak hands in both becomes very hard to do. So i prefer to just play my whole range as a 4 bet vs a raise and a 3 bet in front of me. So i would 4 bet this hand. I would size smaller with the 4 bet. We don't want to commit ourselves.
    Plus in games like this people make pretty bad calls with most of their light 3! range vs smaller 4!, so there is decent value in it as an aside to balance considerations (which probably isn't super important at these stakes -- but even leaky/bad players pays attention somewhat).

    For better or worse I was raising with intention of calling off, not having thought deeply enough about villain 5! range + odds in the moment.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    Spoiler:
    Original opener folded, villain shoved, I called. Villain tabled KK
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I think we have to call after making it that size. If we made it smaller think we can get away
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited March 2017
    stayinschool said:
    I think we have to call after making it that size. If we made it smaller think we can get away
    So we click-raise/fold? Aren't the differences pretty thin between a 2x and a 2.35x? I guess it doesn't take much to shift it from +EV to -EV so I see your point, but how do you size intending to fold here? Are we calling JJ/AK?

  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    I think at 70bb effective 4 bet calling it off is okay.

    But I would be very careful as the stacks get deeper.

    Just because they have a wide 3 betting range doesn't mean they are 5 bet shoving wide.

    The problem with 4 bet folding tt is it essentially becomes part of your bluff range. If you are not careful, you could end up bluffing a lot in this spot which then offers a profitable 5 bet shove to your opponent.

    While up to 100bb, I agree we shouldn't be cold calling 3 bets, I think if stacks were deeper I would consider developing a cold calling range. I think if you only 4 bet or fold, you end up playing too tight against a 3 bet or have to start 4 betting hands that you don't want to stack off with which essentially means you are 4 bet bluffing a lot. Both of those options suck. Question is do they suck more than cold calling a 3 bet with a more balanced range. Cold calling let's you play more hands without turning them into a bluff. I think at greater than 200bb deep it could be a valid move.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    iamallin said:
    I think at 70bb effective 4 bet calling it off is okay.

    But I would be very careful as the stacks get deeper.

    Just because they have a wide 3 betting range doesn't mean they are 5 bet shoving wide.

    The problem with 4 bet folding tt is it essentially becomes part of your bluff range. If you are not careful, you could end up bluffing a lot in this spot which then offers a profitable 5 bet shove to your opponent.

    While up to 100bb, I agree we shouldn't be cold calling 3 bets, I think if stacks were deeper I would consider developing a cold calling range. I think if you only 4 bet or fold, you end up playing too tight against a 3 bet or have to start 4 betting hands that you don't want to stack off with which essentially means you are 4 bet bluffing a lot. Both of those options suck. Question is do they suck more than cold calling a 3 bet with a more balanced range. Cold calling let's you play more hands without turning them into a bluff. I think at greater than 200bb deep it could be a valid move.
    What about 100-200BB like we are here?
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    We are 70bb effective given the straddle. So 4 bet call off with tt is okay I think.

    The main problem is if you are 4 betting bluffs and value hands and your value hands are as thin as 99 or tt, that range is very aggressive and will be put in tough spots against a 5 bet when you are even 150 bb deep.

    For example you cold 4 bet to 24bb and he 5 bets to 55bb with effective stack of 160bb. This is a really bad spot to be in with tt 99 aq and even jj imo.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    edited March 2017
    @stayinschool

    How is cold calling a 3 bet and balancing that range different from just calling a 3 bet when you were the initial raiser?

    When we get 3 bet, we clearly have a mixed response of 4 betting sometimes and calling sometimes and folding sometimes. The only thing different with a 3 bet cold call is we don't close the action and may incentivize the original raiser to 4 bet bluff.

    But with a cold 4 bet we likely force the original raise to fold hands that he otherwise would have cosidered 4 bet bluffing with. I think an exact analysis may get more complex in this spot.

    It seems the 4 bet or fold strategy works because people give too much credit to a cold 4 bet. But if they realized that we are basically 4 betting all of our continuing range as a 4 bet or fold, it becomes appealing to 5 bet bluff if the 4 betting range doesn't have enough hands that will stack off against a 5 bet.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    iamallin said:
    @stayinschool

    How is cold calling a 3 bet and balancing that range different from just calling a 3 bet when you were the initial raiser?

    When we get 3 bet, we clearly have a mixed response of 4 betting sometimes and calling sometimes and folding sometimes. The only thing different with a 3 bet cold call is we don't close the action and may incentivize the original raiser to 4 bet bluff.

    But with a cold 4 bet we likely force the original raise to fold hands that he otherwise would have cosidered 4 bet bluffing with. I think an exact analysis may get more complex in this spot.
    One factor, which you mentioned is that the preflop raiser is still left to act with an uncapped range and can take advantage of us just calling a little.

    Also, because we should be continuing quite tight against a raise and a 3 bet in front balancing that range becomes tricky.

    Say we only decided to continue with 10% of hands, it gets quite tricky to build a call range and a 4 bet range that each have some bluffs and some good hands when you only have a small amount of hands to work with. When you raise and get 3 bet you can continue much wider because you are only against one player, it then becomes easier to have good and bad hands in each range.

    I'm not saying you need to have balanced ranges against everyone, this is just theory. However, the point is when you're range is already pretty narrow to start splitting it again into two ranges makes it even easier to put you on a hand postflop. If you cold call you might have trapped aces but you mostly have 99-JJ and some AQs, KQs, QJs. If you 4 bet you have a lot of QQ+ AK and a few Ax bluffs. So when we call we hit middling flops fairly well but suffer on A high, K high boards as well as low boards. When we 4 bet we do great on the high and low boards but are at a big disadvantage on the middling boards. Putting all your hands in one range helps to make sure you always have at least a few strong hands on every type of flop. It's not perfect but better. This same logic is why a lot of people just prefer to bet or check the flop with all their hands in 4 bet pots, because when you have so few hands to work with to start, splitting them into two ranges and having each range be balanced is very hard.

    I'm sure GTO says you should have some cold calls and 4 bets and use a random number generator to do a each a certain % with each hand. However that's too high level for everyone but the guys in the highest stakes online games.

    I just think the simplest, while most balanced solution is to 4 bet everything, or call everything. I generally think 4 betting everything is best, but just calling everything can be ok too, mostly IP.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Don't get me wrong, when playing live vs weak players i think just 4 betting anything you think you can 4 bet for value and cold calling anything you think is profitable to call is totally fine
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    iamallin said:
    We are 70bb effective given the straddle. So 4 bet call off with tt is okay I think.

    The main problem is if you are 4 betting bluffs and value hands and your value hands are as thin as 99 or tt, that range is very aggressive and will be put in tough spots against a 5 bet when you are even 150 bb deep.

    For example you cold 4 bet to 24bb and he 5 bets to 55bb with effective stack of 160bb. This is a really bad spot to be in with tt 99 aq and even jj imo.
    No straddle in effect here, just big bet sizing from opponents, but I get what you're saying.
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