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Serious question on betting and gender

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited April 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Back in the day I was a bad tight or loose passive player.. I hated it but it made me more money because I didn't hand read..

Then I discovered poker training and CLP and I became much more aggro.. And tighter in certain spots and looser in others.. And my win rate went up a bit..

Over the past few months I am learning AS A WOMAN to be more aggressive in spots and more passive in others.. And my win rate has almost doubled .. now yes its a small sample size but it has been over 4-5 months now so I think its fairly reliable.. Even @squishy has seen it live..

So my question to all you guys is this.. If you see a tight woman playing how much do you increase your bluffing frequency? When you do tend to bluff? Turns when checked to or more so on scary rivers???

I have my own feelings but curious what you all think..

Also how much more often are you bluffing a girl vs same in men ?


So do I think this is true, here is an example:

Hero is white woman known as a "good" player.. V1 button is an aggro asian gal that seems to be raising alot in pos.. V2 bb is another bad player who makes some weird plays.. earlier in the session he donk bet big on river vs Squishy with just KQ os when the front door flush came in.. villain showed me this hand ...

so with $75 in the pot hero has AJ os and although I think I am likely to have the best hand AJ isnt that great and I am in the sb and really didnt feel I could get called by worse if I 3 bet and these two are pretty bad and I want to keep both in the hand..

Flop T 6 x 3.. I check bb checks and V1 makes a rather small bet of $35.. so I decide to float.. and bb calls too.. hero doesnt have the As..

Turn J i check bb checks and now villain bets $125.. seemed weird she would bet small and then bet so big.. but I have top pair now so I call.. also given the flop was more wet I feel she can have a flush draw.. now bb check raises to $255.. v1 insta calls.. so yeah she has to be on some kind of draw.. I am torn.. can this guy have JT? why would he raise so small? I decide I just have to see the river and I call.. pot is now .. $950 ish....

River brick.. I check bb bets almost instantly $350.. v1 folds in disgust.. and now back on me.. like on turn I am torn trying to think of a value hand that he would play this way.. so eventually I call and he says "good call" and flips over J 9

complaining how much "equity" he had on turn.. just like in the hand with @Squishy I do think he wasnt exactly sure what to do so he just bets as a default since that is better than checking..

now this might not be the best example of bluffing the tight girl but I have had plenty of examples when I cbet with say an overpair and when the board pairs say bottom pair I check and get two streets from guys that think they can rep top pair only for me to show down my overpair and win a nice pot.... even on wet boards I get alot of value this way.. and in similar situations I bet turn and they just fold.. so its like they fold to my barrels but if play dead they take it as a weakness and a green light to bluff with pretty much whatever they are calling my flop bet with..

well let me know what you think.. thanks!!

Wendy
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Comments

  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 770Subscriber
    My quick summary: i tend to find women play abc poker. So i tend to treat an unknown womans play as "face up" ie check means weak, bet means strong.

    I dont overly try to bluff women more than men, but the one case i might is check raising her flop bet when i have a draw. Say women is the pfr and cbets a Kxx board or Axx board. I will raise or check raise here with a draw a higher frequency against an unknown woman vs man on the assumption that a woman is less likely to float , less likely to raise me as a bluff, and more likely to fold tpgk.

    Past the flop i tend to leave gender out of it in terms of me bluffing, and tend to call women off less lighter than men. Ie if all the men in your player pool think like me, you should be bluffing more often than men bluff.

    But i will immediately adjust when proven wrong, just like i will against any other stereotype i have.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    i treat really older women, (not hammah :) )as ABC like roger said but younger women as good or aggro unless proven otherwise. Feel like women who play a lot of poker are more solid overall. Ive played with more then good enough women to think that matters but show me a good solid indian grocery store owner and Ill give you a $100.

    This is similar to my findings that i get paid more when I wear sunglasses.
  • sivaddivad Posts: 339Subscriber
    In my experience women in their late 30s or older are fit or fold when I show aggression. If I raise them and they call, I will either stop bluffing or stack them if I have a real hand. I tend to 3 bet more lightly for value pre, and bet a little larger on each street with real hands and a little less with bluffs.

    Younger women tend to be more aggressive and I just play how I would against more aggressive opponents. Although they tend to be a little more sticky than male TAG/LAGs and 3bet me a little more often pre, so I will make some adjustments.

    These are all of course generalizations and will update when I see information that discounts these notions.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,132Subscriber
    I think in general women are tighter pre, but once they are in the pot they will call you down, because they don't want to be "bullied".
    That's a very general statement obviously. :cool:
    by 1AJoff
  • daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    Instead of gender stereotyping I think age is a better way to stereotype. Younger ladies tend to take the game more seriously and are more TAGy and can hand read better than the older ladies. Same goes for men.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    I think all the stereotyping is BS across the board. "Middle age black guy" oh really. So it Phil Ivey." Old Man." That's most of the pros we watched on HSP. "Young grinder". Tom Dwan confirmed busto. Or one of Chad Powers horses living on a mattress in a basement because being a young grinder doesn't mean your good.

    You have to pay attention to each player and how they play. As soon as you make an assumption based on appearance your in trouble. Even if you think "oh he's just a drunk fish" you will soon be stacked by DGAF!
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    edited April 2017
    I'm not exactly a representative sample but I don't really run big multi-street bluffs on female unknowns. The issue with tight/passive, fit/fold players is that they tend to show up with strong holdings later in hands and don't really fold once they show interest in a pot.

    Earlier in the hand is totally different. If it's folded to me on the btn and a girl is in the BB, I might be raising like 65%.

    The villain in your hh played that way because he is clicking buttons, not because youre a girl. This stuff happens to young white males too. This player type causes me way more stress than even decent winning regs.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Well yet again last night some random guy tried to bluff me.. stacked off for 900..

    he hasnt played a hand but has just complained that the next table has all the action. Put his name up on the 25/50 limit game list.. he raises to 30 as ope from hj.. folds to me in bb I see A K .. I flat..

    pot $60.. A 5 2 me check him bet $35.. his bet was so small I thought about raising him right here but if he is bluffing he would just fold so i call...

    pot $130.. Turn K me $100.. he now raises to $300.. again do I bet threebet? he has 550 left after the raise.. I thought he had some kind of ace but having not played with him before.. I call..

    River 2.. me check he goes all in instantly I call he says.. your ace is good.. lol.. guess he was on a flush draw.. very weirdly played.. but yet again someone tried to bluff me off my hand.. So maybe I just look bluffable????

  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    It's the glasses
  • sivaddivad Posts: 339Subscriber
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    by 1Lauz
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    sivaddivad said:
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    Please give me examples that will hold up.

    All black people play.......
    All Asians play.......
    All women play.......
    All white peole play.......

    The only stereotypes that hold up are TAG, LAG, OMC, calling station etc that describe their playing style and those come in all genders and skin tones.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    edited April 2017
    Thehammah said:
    Well yet again last night some random guy tried to bluff me.. stacked off for 900..

    he hasnt played a hand but has just complained that the next table has all the action. Put his name up on the 25/50 limit game list.. he raises to 30 as ope from hj.. folds to me in bb I see A K .. I flat..

    pot $60.. A 5 2 me check him bet $35.. his bet was so small I thought about raising him right here but if he is bluffing he would just fold so i call...

    pot $130.. Turn K me $100.. he now raises to $300.. again do I bet threebet? he has 550 left after the raise.. I thought he had some kind of ace but having not played with him before.. I call..

    River 2.. me check he goes all in instantly I call he says.. your ace is good.. lol.. guess he was on a flush draw.. very weirdly played.. but yet again someone tried to bluff me off my hand.. So maybe I just look bluffable????

    on the flop you say you call to let him bluff and then on the turn you lead?

  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    sivaddivad said:
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    Please give me examples that will hold up.

    All black people play.......
    All Asians play.......
    All women play.......
    All white peole play.......

    The only stereotypes that hold up are TAG, LAG, OMC, calling station etc that describe their playing style and those come in all genders and skin tones.
    ALL INDIANS PLAY HORRIBLE

  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    maphacks said:
    pokertime said:
    sivaddivad said:
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    Please give me examples that will hold up.

    All black people play.......
    All Asians play.......
    All women play.......
    All white peole play.......

    The only stereotypes that hold up are TAG, LAG, OMC, calling station etc that describe their playing style and those come in all genders and skin tones.
    ALL INDIANS PLAY HORRIBLE

    I'll bite. Native American or from India? You can't even stereotype your stereotype. Lol. I play with a number of guys from India. One is a LAG that will crush your soul, one is a TAG nit that also does well because everyone thinks he plays garbage because his from India but he's a nut peddler and another guy is just rich watching sports on TV to get out of the house. He's not even playing horrible just mediocre.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I lead turn because now if he had an ace I have him crushed but I also didnt want it to be checked through.

    if it had been say a brick I would have checked again
  • sivaddivad Posts: 339Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    sivaddivad said:
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    Please give me examples that will hold up.

    All black people play.......
    All Asians play.......
    All women play.......
    All white peole play.......

    The only stereotypes that hold up are TAG, LAG, OMC, calling station etc that describe their playing style and those come in all genders and skin tones.
    You just answered your own ask by agreeing there is some truth to some steriotypes. No steriotype works in all situations.. including TAG, LAG.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    sivaddivad said:
    pokertime said:
    sivaddivad said:
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    Please give me examples that will hold up.

    All black people play.......
    All Asians play.......
    All women play.......
    All white peole play.......

    The only stereotypes that hold up are TAG, LAG, OMC, calling station etc that describe their playing style and those come in all genders and skin tones.
    You just answered your own ask by agreeing there is some truth to some steriotypes. No steriotype works in all situations.. including TAG, LAG.
    Wow really?
  • sivaddivad Posts: 339Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    sivaddivad said:
    pokertime said:
    sivaddivad said:
    well looking bluffable is making you some money..

    For people saying stereotypes are BS... When you are playing against an unknown, it's not ideal - but it's all you have to go on! Some information is almost always better than no information..
    Please give me examples that will hold up.

    All black people play.......
    All Asians play.......
    All women play.......
    All white peole play.......

    The only stereotypes that hold up are TAG, LAG, OMC, calling station etc that describe their playing style and those come in all genders and skin tones.
    You just answered your own ask by agreeing there is some truth to some steriotypes. No steriotype works in all situations.. including TAG, LAG.
    Wow really?
    Are you saying that when you play against an unknown 25 year old guy with a back pack and earbuds you will play the same as you would against an unknown 50 year old wearing a Rolex and drinking at the table?
    by 1Lauz
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 331Subscriber
    My default vs unknown female players is to bluff less and to call down less light. I will value bet bigger once I've been called once. Obviously this changes as I get more information.

    I bluff less because in my experience they are a bit more likely to play top pair type hands passively or pot control with them...But will call down with them. If I bluff, its usually earlier in the hand and I never run multi street bluffs vs them. This is also why I value bet bigger once I've been called once. I call down less because I don't see much bluffing and aggression is heavily skewed toward strong holdings.

    There are a few very good women players I've had the chance to play with regularly over the past year or so, and I don't play any differently vs them than I would play vs a very good male player who exhibits a similar playstyle. I think stereotypes are useful vs unknown. I might not be able to explain why some demographic tends to exhibit certain patterns, but I do notice the patterns and I'd be a fool not to use this information when no other information is available.

    I do think some men try to bully women players and are likely to make different plays than I would.
    by 1Rysher8
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    So I think the difference is that in many situations We gals PREVENT our opponents from trying to bluff us because we are afraid of the run out and because almost no players hand read any board looks scary. SOOOO what do we do in this spot? We bet when we are strong and we check call when we are weak. or just always play passively..

    So because of this a guy like the one from a couple of days ago would just fold the river when I bet.. instead I hand read and I check called his all in because it looks like I can't call him..

    Now I think this would work for men too..against other male aggressive opponents.. I hope this description is coming through..

    So lets say with my AK hand I played it this way:

    1) villain raises in late position and I 3 bet to 85.. he folds..

    or maybe this way..

    2) villain raises in late position with QJ dd. I 3 bet to 85.. he calls..
    Flop is same I bet $115.. he calls.. Turn K I bet $250 he calls.. river 2 .. I bet $400 he folds..

    Yes I am value betting.. 100%.. but I force my opponent to just play the hand for his equity.. But playing it a bit more passively preflop and then just calling flop I have confused him into thinking I am weaker than I am. I am completely aware of where I am in the hand with his range.. and because of this can play the hand a bit differently that induced his bluff..

    He probably isnt much of a bluffer...but because of the way I played it he just tried to win the hand ..

    anyways.. would be interesting to know if you guys try something like this and get a similar reaction..
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