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$5/$10: Critique my Cold 4-bet Bluff Line

Joanna Posts: 428Member
edited April 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
CO ($1000) is a spewy recreational regular with non-poker money opens to $30. SB ($2500) is a semi-pro TAG reg 3bs to $110. Hero BB ($1500) makes it $350 with A J

CO... flats (WTF?), SB folds.

9 8 7 $810 I shove $650 effective.

Is this good? Am I picking the right hands to balance my premiums with? How's my 4b sizing?
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Comments

  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    Spewy rec does not come to fold. By the way, you had me at your Tagline, Critique My Cold 4-Bet Bluff line. The funny thing here is you can get called by worse on this flop.

    I don't hate any street. If your called you could have 7 or more outs. We can fold out AQ, too. Once you decided to 4! You are shoving this flop.

    How about A5s, as the perfect balancer/blocker bluff. Mix in some JTs for your 3! because of playability, which should not be a factor with fresh out the freezer 4!'s. Frequency your mega-aggression with these hands by picking a suit. When your suit hits the right spot then 3! or 4!

    Reading the headline alone makes want stick chips in a pot.

    I want you to have been called by a set and River a T here. That is my Hollywood ending.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Our cold 4 bet range should be pretty tight, I think AJo is too loose. I'd mostly just have value here. AK, some AQs, QQ+. Throw in some A5s if you want but that's it.

  • ClockClock Posts: 1,081Subscriber
    edited April 2017
    I don't hate the cold 4-bet with the right table dynamics, but this is a horrible flop to shove. :frown:
    What better hands do you think you're folding out from "spewy recreational regular"?

    AK, AQ? .. I guess .... do you think he calls your 4bet with those? If you say so, but I don't know...I think if AK doesn't believe you - he just shoves pre $1K deep, especially if he's "spewy recreational regular"
    Also if you think he would call 4bets with those - then I wouldn't 4bet with AJo here...

    On other hand, I can totally see him flat the 4bet with most PP.
    The problem is they all either flopped sets or are open ended or it's JJ which is obv NEVER ever folding.

    If he flats the 4bet with AQs - you're only folding out 2 combos (the non club ones)
    Seems like a bad flop for a semi-bluff shove vs this particular opponent to me.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    I don't understand the purpose of 4bet bluffing here. The flop shove on that board is fine, as you will indeed fold out AK and AQ. However this seems like a very marginal opportunity, where often you're going to stack off 100+BBs in the name of balancing your range.
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    stayinschool said:
    Our cold 4 bet range should be pretty tight, I think AJo is too loose. I'd mostly just have value here. AK, some AQs, QQ+. Throw in some A5s if you want but that's it.


    4 combos of A5s. AK and QQ+ are 34 combos alone. 4 and 34. How is this balance? Is this "a little balance"? What's the point of having "a little balance"? I would understand if you just said something like: "live you don't need a cold 4b bluff range, we need to exploitively only have value there". That would make more sense than "ok you can have 4 combos of bluff to 34 of value if you want balance".
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    stayinschool said:
    Our cold 4 bet range should be pretty tight, I think AJo is too loose. I'd mostly just have value here. AK, some AQs, QQ+. Throw in some A5s if you want but that's it.

    Would you be on board with AJs? And maybe only 2 combos of AJs out of 4? J blocks JJ which is a good thing.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    AJs works a lot better, i'm cool with that.
  • Krista Posts: 165Subscriber
    I don't mind the 4 bet bluff here since you really have no reason to think either player has a premium. Sizing is fine, imo. Once the opener calls your 4 bet, I think you've got to proceed with caution on this board. This board figures to hit almost everything except AQ or AK, which you block. I guess KQ is possible too. It is so much more likely that he has a PP or some hand with a T. 66,77,88,99,TT, JT, QT, KT, AT, J9, etc - all hit this board. I actually had nearly the exact scenario as this hand happen recently although I had 3 bet AJ OOP - not 4 bet. We took the flop heads up and the flop came 789. I checked and he checked back - which I would expect with nearly his entire range. The turn was a J. Check check again. River 2. I checked again, planning to let him bluff - he bet about 1/3 pot. I called and he showed J9. I think I lost the min. If I had made a big flop bet, he was calling and I would just have lost more. Once the J fell on the turn, my only option to win the pot was 2 very big bets to try to rep the T. That may have worked or may not have but it is an extremely high variance line.
  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    In reality, I do not have a cold 4-bet bluffing range, nor do I think I will be constructing one in the near future. If I am sticking 4-bets cold, I am fairly nutted. Now depending on the situation, nutted can range for TT to AQs, but usually it is AA sprinkled with some KK and and AKs. That being said, I know if I stick 4 in cold with this holding, I am unloading the clip on the flop. I am not checking and facing a bet.

    In reality, I do not think you need a Cold 4-bet bluffing range NLH, so there is no need to balance. Again if you feel you need one. I would have just one hand A5s of pick your suit. If you want a second, pick a second suit. That is enough.

    by 1Rysher8
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    1. So some people are OK with 4-bet. Some think it's too loose because AJo is not the best hand to do with.

    2. Some people don't like flop jam because flop connects with most of V's range. Some people like it because... once 4bet, we're jamming? Hmmm. Thinking about V's range.. yeah I think the jam was bad because V was not folding the 45% required to breakeven on the bluff.

    The ending was not quite Hollywood. I would describe it as Bollywood. BK got the first half right. I got instacalled by 77. And umm... I got instacalled by 77.

    The silver lining was that I got to show A-high and it was good for my image and SB let me double up thru him 10 mins later. Something I don't think he would have done without this tomfoolery.
  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    I don't understand the "if you want some bluffs just throw in (1,2,3,whatever combos of) A5s". How is this derived?

    Like I said if I 4b QQ+/AK for value here then it's 34 combos. What's the point of throwing in a couple bluff combos? "A little" balance? Is a "a little balance" better than no balance at all? Wouldn't real balance call for more bluff combos vs 34 value?

    How do we calculate how many bluff combos we need for true balance?
  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    It is such a rare spot. I play abou 800 hours+ a year and I can only remember put in one cold 4! In the past year, so when I do I am pure value. People think I am fairly LAG without having this in my arsenal. If I were to add some cold 4! I would add a suited blocker with some straight potential, in case I do get called.

    Maybe I need to start thinking about a cold 4! range with bluffs. Well I don't love AJ, because that blocks JJ which is one of the hands we hope to fold with our cold 4! And when we don't fold it we are in worse shape than have a live card.

    Am I missing value in not picking off the CO 2! And Button 3! With my cold 4!? You have me thinking. I love to put chips in the pot. 35....110...460 is my near future...I will tell how it goes.



  • Joanna Posts: 428Member
    edited April 2017
    BKism said:
    It is such a rare spot.
    ...because you don't bluff. Comes up all the time when SB is 3-betting LP open and you're in BB. Or when button 3bs and you're in the blinds.

  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    I don't bluff would be incorrect, but I have not been looking for opportunities in this particular spot, the way that I should. You are opening my eyes to the fact that I should be looking at a cold 4! range. I am not shy at sticking chips in pots, so I will be looking for my cold 4! opportunities. I will let you know how they go.
  • maphacks Posts: 1,962Subscriber
    edited April 2017
    it's a decent hand to 4b. I would make it 270-290.

    flop is close. it's one of our worst hands but villain might very well fold AQ or AK. if he has TT you have 5 outs, vs QQ we have 7. if you think the guy folds AQ/AK it's fine IMO. technically it should be a c/f but who cares, the guy did flat a called 35% of his stack pre...
  • bingyian Posts: 90Subscriber
    "CO is a spewy recreational player"
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 202Subscriber
    edited April 2017
    Clock said:
    I don't hate the cold 4-bet with the right table dynamics, but this is a horrible flop to shove. :frown:
    I agree. These middling connected boards are the very worst Cbet textures. They just smack a loose calling range right in the meat of the bat.

    I'm not at all surprised at the call by a spewy rec. The hand doesn't even start until they see five cards. Zombie mode. mmmmm. MUST SEE FLOP! I saw a guy limp/call 100bb ai preflop with Q8o last night.

    That said, you do have some equity and it's telling that he didn't 5! pre. Kinda makes AA-KK less likely. I think you have to go with it.
    Joanna said:

    The ending was not quite Hollywood. I would describe it as Bollywood. BK got the first half right. I got instacalled by 77. And umm... I got instacalled by 77.
    Oh, he had 77. Well, then I take all of that back.
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