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DPP #43 15-25-35.

The Clubber Posts: 110Member
edited December 2014 in Deuce Plays podcast
Link to the content

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/15-25-35

So the premise of revising the 10 / 20 / 30 rules on effective stacks for pocket pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces is that the player pool is getting better at folding overpairs when facing aggression. The logic goes that since they aren't paying off when we make our hand, we need them to pay off bigger to compensate for the lower frequency.

However, can't we take the same premise - players are getting better folding big pairs - and instead draw the conclusion that we should be increasing our bluffing frequency since our expectation of fold equity is greater than it used to be?

Comments

  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    It really depends on skill level. If Villain is very easy to outplay because you are much more skilled, then you can play loose preflop.

    The problem is that the player pool has gotten significantly better, so you need to be a soul-crusher if you want to play loosely against Villains who are not deep-stacked. It is not simply because people fold over pairs correctly. They also do some other things better too. All those things reduce the profitability of speculative hands.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    David Chan said

    It really depends on skill level. If Villain is very easy to outplay because you are much more skilled, then you can play loose preflop.

    The problem is that the player pool has gotten significantly better, so you need to be a soul-crusher if you want to play loosely against Villains who are not deep-stacked. It is not simply because people fold over pairs correctly. They also do some other things better too. All those things reduce the profitability of speculative hands.
    David -

    Since you mentioned that the player pool as a while is getting better and speculative hands are becoming less profitable, I am curious how you would define a proper strategy when approaching a game full of unknowns where (obviously) you cannot rely on your past history? Would you focus strictly on a TAG game plan and bet/folding and raise/folding value hands and remove the smaller sc's from your range completely? Would you worry about building an image or just let the cards do that for you as they are dealt? I realize how broad this question is...
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Against randoms who are unfamiliar with my playing style, I am comfortable making specuatlive calls using something like a 12/24/46 rule (instead of a 15/25/35 rule). This is mostly just confidence on my part that I can out-play them postflop.

    I don't worry about building an image. If a good opportunity comes up for me to run a profitable bluff, then I will run a bluff. If a good opportunity comes up to get maximum value with a disguised speculative hand, then I will go for maximum value. There is no need for me to "create an image." Once the table starts to perceive me to have a certain image, then I just make sure to understand my perceived image, so that I can exploit my perceived image.
  • brody Posts: 8Subscriber
    Love the podacast!

    Should we go 25 or 35x rules for the Axs ?
  • BartBart Posts: 4,778AdministratorLeadPro
    brody said:
    Love the podacast!

    Should we go 25 or 35x rules for the Axs ?
    Ax suited is a different breed--as it breaks the rule of looking at the pf raisers stack. You should be more concerned with the other callers in the hand.

    Bart
  • brody Posts: 8Subscriber
    Hey Bart,

    I know that you dont play online NL cash game a lot but what do you think of the 15-25-35 rule for low stacke FR online game ?

    The game dont play the same. for example: usually the raises are smaller preflop online so can we still applied the rule ?

    Thank
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Just speaking for myself, but I think that people should be using 15-25-35 as a very rough guideline and not a rule. You need to account for other factors besides stack sizes when you are evaluating the profitability of playing any particular preflop holding. 15-25-35 is a good guideline for understanding how stack sizes affect the profitablity of playing small pairs/SCs/SGs, but you need to be aware of the other factors that affect the EV of calling/overcalling certain preflop holdings.
  • brody Posts: 8Subscriber
    Good point David,

    With that said, Do you still think this guideline is mostly applicable live and not online because the "other factors" are way different from live to online ?

    Btw, just finished to listen all the podcasts and videos that you did in the past years, I really like the way you explain stuff. I really enjoy your podcast with David Tuchman where you explain how we should not only be poker smart but street smart at the table.
  • BartBart Posts: 4,778AdministratorLeadPro
    brody said:
    Hey Bart,

    I know that you dont play online NL cash game a lot but what do you think of the 15-25-35 rule for low stacke FR online game ?

    The game dont play the same. for example: usually the raises are smaller preflop online so can we still applied the rule ?

    Thank
    Not exactly sure where you are playing FRing online cash? I assume that this is at micro levels?

    Usually the skill level of players online is a lot more mathematical and greater than thei live counterparts. That couple with more aggression in the form of squeezing preflop make it very difficult to call with sc and gsc no matter how deep you are.
  • nofriends333 Posts: 742Subscriber
    Bart the question i had is about the zebo theory you brought up on the very first deuce episode in 2011 . It was the next to last hand on the podcast at around the 42 min mark. I think you were in the SB with A10o checked to the BB flop 10 8 5 2 spades BB leads for $30 two callers turn 5 one fold you SB bets $100 BB raise $200 SB calls river 10 SB shoves BB insta calls shows a 5 . You mentioned value bet to death but my question is if roles were reversed and he shoved first would you make the insta call? Or maybe another scenario would be if you held the 5 and he had A 10o , would you shove from the SB? Thanks
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