Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Call or Raise all in on river?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
hero won the biggest pot of her poker career about an hour before when she turned a gutter for broadway vs a fish overplaying top and bottom pair. Sitting on $4700 in chips at 5/10 at Commerce

V- SB I recognize and knows me has called into the show before but I am not sure is a subscriber or not. Seems to have been playing very very nitty.. Villain is on my direct left


Hero -Btn has villain covered..

A player in relatively early position raises to a standard of $35 a few callers I call on button with 55 sb calls and bb calls.. I believe there were 5 players in the hand.. $175 pot..

Flop J 3 4 one diamond.. checks around.. I considered betting on the flop here but I dunno I didnt think it would get through. but I probably should of ..

Turn 5 now sb leads out for $115 next to act super abc omc calls folds to me and I raise to $400.. sb thinks then calls.. omc folds.. Pot just shy of $1000..

River 3 vil thinks then bets $565 I think.. I might have been $550.. he has about $600 left..


so here is what was going through my head (good or bad please comment)..

I am up big and really didnt want to just willy nilly spew it back..
this guy was super nitty yet he bet this river
Is this guy really capable of betting a flush draw and following up with a bet on a paired board?
am I really running into 66s JJs or 33s?

hero?
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Raising a FH for value is not Willy nilly though I completely understand your thought process. At some point you have to pick up and go home. Variance always hits and we aren't robots that can play 24/7. There is no controlling when variance hits and when we need to go to bed!

    Your hand it too strong and he doesn't have enough left to worrry about. He can have AdJd assuming J wasn't diamond on flop. Even AK/AQ/ATd he was stabbing turn and felt he had equity to see river. Seems if he flopped a set he comes back over OTT when FD comes in though A2 gets there also. Hard sometime to
    balance a nit. At the same time if you feel it's a thinking player that isn't calling without FH/quad then a call is OK.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Thinking player should probably be squeezing JJ in SB as well. I think I have to raise and hope V sees the pot as too big to fold NF
  • 2thdoctor Posts: 66Subscriber
    was the flop J36 or J34? If J34 like the original post I think it's worth a jam because he needs exactly 33 (JJ likely 3 bets preflop) and so many flushes get there (suit distribution?) If J36 now 66 beats us and maybe it's more ok to call.

    I think with him that short I'm more likely to raise while if he had ~$1400 behind i'd be more likely to just call because I don't think we can raise-fold for that stack amount
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    was the J a or was it the 4? (it's kinda important, Hammah!)
    if 4 - then straight flush is in his range on river too.

    agree that flop is a bet.
    If no one has a J, then you're getting value from hands drawing to a str8s, 2-pair and overcards.
    checking offers you some insight into your mental game here
    (it seems that you were in stack preservation mode, not betting to win.)

    on turn, let's review what a nitty-ish SB could be betting out with:
    FD, straights (made or on a draw), 2-pair, sets
    so - 44, 33, JJ, A2, 67, 34, 45 (unlikely) and 35 (also unlikely)

    since you checked the flop - I don't understand why you're raising turn
    your hand is strong - but certainly not nutted
    you're also playing your hand face up... giving away the strength of it
    against a player that's playing
    very, very nitty
    raising here only gets him to fold out the bottom of his range
    BUT
    consider this: if he is really playing very, very nitty - would he bet out from oop into FIVE players with the bottom of his range?
    (imo, I don't think so)
    we raise... I guess cuz "we haz a set, bro!"
    but I don't like it against THIS particular player
    also because our image must be very strong - so betting only gets called by better hands
    he calls.
    he's probably sharp enough to understand that a raise pushes out all worse hands and leave him up against the very top of a Hammah-range... so he makes the correct play to smooth call

    river: 3
    This should be a scary card for your run of the mill straight.
    So if he bets, he should have A 2 or 6 7 (both very reasonable hands for a nitty range) and boats.
    his river bet defines his range as nutted
    we beat 44, 34s - (5 total combos)
    we're smoked by JJ (3 combos), 33 (1 combo), str8 Flush... if 4 was a (2 combos)

    [btw - disagree that V is always raising JJ here. if table is playing super loose, squeezing from SB causes more problems than it solves]

    all hands that we crush - like str8s and reg flushes are probably never calling a river raise because it would be obvious that we're repping at minimum, a boat.

    it seems that a call against a very, very nitty player is most optimal.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    so if this guy is a sub and is generally a thin value bettor can I get called by worse? Aside from the cooler that was what I was mainly thinking about.

    so lets say he has nut flush $600 more. How can i have anything other than a full house. I think I level myself a bit vs perceived better players.

  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    so if this guy is a sub and is generally a thin value bettor can I get called by worse? Aside from the cooler that was what I was mainly thinking about.

    so lets say he has nut flush $600 more. How can i have anything other than a full house. I think I level myself a bit vs perceived better players.

    If this is your reason to call I'm fine with that. Makes sense and isn't due to monsters under the bed.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    There is also value in getting to see V hand.
  • greenjellobiafra Posts: 15SubscriberProfessional
    edited May 2017
    My favorite part about this post is being called a nit. ;) I've been called many things before, but a nit isn't one of them! Feels kinda good! haha hi Hammah!

    Although I'm losing to 55 here, I thought you would have bet the other sets on the flop. I bet river as you could easily have a straight on this board given the pre-flop and turn action and I don't want to let it go check check.

    I could also show up with two pair that boats the river, which you might expect to get value from when you shove back given stack sizes (even assuming you think I would fold the nut flush for only 600 more, which i would against you, although you didn't necessarily know that at the time).

    In hindsight, not realizing just how nitty you were playing given that you were up big in 5-10 and how much you were on lockdown mode, my play on this river should have been a check-fold!
  • laphonso Posts: 69Subscriber
    High five dealer, shake head, shove all in... what is the question?
  • Idlecaillou Posts: 121Subscriber
    Spoiler ?
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    This is a pretty simple call for all the reasons you mentioned Hammah. Yes he has a good amount of flushes, but if he's a good player at 5/10, none of them are going to call when you raise on this board. So if you're value owning yourself when behind and very unlikely to get another dollar when ahead, just call and see what's what.
  • KSMKSM Posts: 224Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    Okay, so a couple things here..

    First of all, is this typed up correctly? Why would you be afraid of 66? If the board is different it drastically changes this hand, obv.

    1. If EP raised to 35, one caller inbetween, Hammah calls on the button. 4 players in at this point. The SB should have a HUGE propensity to 3b JJ there. Especially if he/she is a winning player, even if slightly.

    2. If SB DOES have JJ, the flop and turn play are pretty consistent until you raise. She flats you with JJ? Did he tank? Even with OMC behind?

    3. On the river, you think that with JJ the SB is going to LEAD half of his/her stack into you when the flush draw comes with JJ?

    Basically for the SB to have you beat, she would have had to FLAT JJ as the fourth caller pre, Flat your raise instead of 3b on the turn, and then lead river huge instead of c/r when the diamond comes?

    It's pretty impossible for SB to have JJ here imo. (Unless clicking buttons)
    The only hand that you could possibly lose to here is 33. with is one single combo of hands. Your opponent here should have an enormous amount of nut flushes.

    In live poker, we are never really going to truly get into our opponent's heads. We can't understand how they will play every situation because the game is so slow, people's emotions come into play, etc..
    No matter how good our opponent is, we have to give them chances to make mistakes. I think calling here is letting our opponent off the hook and a large mistake even if you don't think he'll usually call with a lot of his flushes. ESPECIALLY for what is effectively a min raise.. you think your opponent is going to fold ATdd getting 4.5:1?

    For all the above reasons I think this is a slam-dunk jam. It's only money, Hammah. Whether you're up a ton or down a ton, you still gotta make the right play!
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    Call, and after the hand get up and cash out. If the amount of chips you have in front of you prevents you from playing properly (meaning, raise here for sure), then quit this game and play in one where you your stack doesn't get you thinking about the money in this way.
  • fishcake Posts: 952Subscriber
    I dislike turn raise and can't believe so many posters think this is a flat on the river. Easy jam.
  • fishcake Posts: 952Subscriber
    As in, I would just call turn.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    fishcake said:
    I dislike turn raise and can't believe so many posters think this is a flat on the river. Easy jam.
    why don't you like the raise on the turn?
  • eyedunno Posts: 215Subscriber
    Replying before I read other replies... Once you raise on the turn and the SB calls I would be somewhat concerned. I don't know how aware or thinking this player is, but given his position and the flop action, you are raising into what is an almost uncapped range and got called. Despite the nitty tendencies of the SB, with this many players I can't discount various suited connected cards from his range so when he leads into the field it looks very strong, and when you make a big raise and get called I think SB is at or near the top of ranges here. Suit distribution on the flop is important also and maybe you answer that in a reply but I wanted to post my thoughts before someone else biased my opinion. :)

    As played, I just call on the river because I'm not sure what worse hands call a shove and I think your hand is basically face up as a FH if you move in on the river.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,828Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    ^^^^^

    turned sets are hard to read, this is why I dont think Villain calling a raise is scary. Im with fishcake and others that say jam.

    Pretty MUBSy but im sure that has to do with Villain dynamics.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    Ok after considering the excellent points of @pokertime, @KSM, @Neverlearn2 and the like, I have changed my mind and this should be a shove. Consider me taken to nit reform school.
  • fishcake Posts: 952Subscriber
    eyedunno said:
    Replying before I read other replies... Once you raise on the turn and the SB calls I would be somewhat concerned. I don't know how aware or thinking this player is, but given his position and the flop action, you are raising into what is an almost uncapped range and got called. Despite the nitty tendencies of the SB, with this many players I can't discount various suited connected cards from his range so when he leads into the field it looks very strong, and when you make a big raise and get called I think SB is at or near the top of ranges here. Suit distribution on the flop is important also and maybe you answer that in a reply but I wanted to post my thoughts before someone else biased my opinion. :)

    As played, I just call on the river because I'm not sure what worse hands call a shove and I think your hand is basically face up as a FH if you move in on the river.
    A flush is never folding here for the rest of his stack. 44, 53 never folding. Badly played straight probably not folding.

    Your post actually illustrates why I would call the turn instead of raise. SB is leading into the field and has a decent amount of straights here. If he also has a lower set we're likely to get a nice bet on the river or all of his money if we both fill up. Finally, an OMC overcalled the turn. It's a pretty good spot to flat turn.
    by 1Rysher8
Sign In or Register to comment.