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$5/$10 Facing River Shove in Bloated Pot

BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
V is a competent player, who from conversations I know plays higher. He is tricky and capable. He just lost a mid size pot in SB prior to this hand.

He opens button $30 (1610) eff...I am playing 2.5K

I opt to make a super large 5x reraise with A J . I have been experimenting with larger sizings OOP.

He flats

Pot 310

5h 5d 6h

I bet 175 he calls.

Pot 660

Trn Ac...I check
I think it is hard for me to get value from worse.

He bets 395. I take an appropriate amount of time and call.

Pot 1450

R 8s

I check. He bets 910 all in.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Can't fold an A here
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    This looks to me an awful lot like AK. Once you make it 5x pre, you're drastically narrowing his calling range to premium hands, or perhaps a few pocket pairs that are frustrated from the last hand and want to see a flop. AK is often not giving up on that flop, because he beats any non-paired hand, and because AK turns brains into mush. Turn and river complete a believable story, and I'm probably folding.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    Weird check by you on a card that's bluffed a ton in 3! pots, guess you're too Ax heavy in similar spots?
    I think I'm with @stayinschool on this one.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    Why would you call the turn and not the river? Were you trying to catch a river Jack? If so, not good.

    Please explain why you checked the turn... and then as an independent action, why did you call the turn?
  • urreadisshowing Posts: 4Subscriber
    I think he has AK here most of the time and is rarely turning 1010-KK into a bluff on the river (especially after your turn check call). Maybe he puts you on a pocket pair slightly lower than his and is also hoping you fold an ace.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    Call. He's ranging you 77, 99-KK alot of the time. I'd be impressed/surprised if he floated AQ/AK & went for 3 full streets w/ it. If he spiked with A5s/K5s/65s/75s, good for him.
  • maphacks Posts: 1,999Subscriber
    Turn can go either way. We definitely should bet some Ax combos to balance out our bluffs.

    AP, I call the river
    by 1BKism
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I supposed it's not great we have the Jh but still, if he has a bluff I think he will run it on this card trying to fold out TT-KK. I would expect him to have a lot of AK and AQ but being one of the best hands we can have we can't fold. I do like the turn check to protect our TT-KK and agree that getting value may be a little hard
    by 1BKism
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    This guy is a good player? The better this guy is I think the MORE likely this is a bluff.. He KNOWS he can use the A to scare you or he thinks he has the best hand. I am hard pressed to fold here..
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    The preflop call is what gets me here. What is this guy calling an absolutely monster re-raise with preflop, calling the flop, betting the turn, then shoving the river after you call the turn bet? Some kind of broadway heart draw? That's the only thing that doesn't have enough showdown equity to simply check back the river.

    Edit: You have the broadway heart draw, so as you said that makes him bluffing hearts much more unlikely. I think this is definitely a fold.
  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    [quote][nopair Posts: 57
    1:06AM Like
    Why would you call the turn and not the river? Were you trying to catch a river Jack? If so, not good.

    Please explain why you checked the turn... and then as an independent action, why did you call the turn?/quote]

    I call the turn, because there are several hands he will turn into bluffs that I cannot get value from by betting.

    77-JJ, are hands he could use as bluffs now that I checked, as well as barrel his flush draws and even a hand like 8 7 .

    I think I have a very hard time getting value from worse on the turn, besides from a two-way draw that may even be concerned with AA.

    I think checking protects my range in similar spots, as well as, induces worse to take some initiative.

    I am not trying to catch a J, but I would accept one. I do have the nut flush draw, too.

    As for calling the turn and not calling the River, it is harder for a player to double barrel here than it is to take one stab at the pot. He is good enough to bet all of his AK combinations that he gets here with, any AQ's, too, which is probably only one partial combination of A Q .

    I block some of his bluffs with the Jh, but I block a lot of his value, too. Four A:h: Kx combos, and Ah Qh.

    [quote][maphacks Posts: 1,681Subscriber
    4:51AM
    Turn can go either way. We definitely should bet some Ax combos to balance out our bluffs.

    AP, I call the river/quote]

    The reason this particular hand is better as a check for me is because I hearts covered and I block many of the draws that will call with worse.

    IMO, this is better hand to induce with than to try for thin value.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    I missed that you had a flush draw, so mostly ignore my comments above. I was thinking you just had aces with the a jack kicker, and so you weren't really drawing to anything except hitting your kicker. In reality, you had a flush draw, so presumably you would call or bet the river if it came a heart or a jack. There is certainly merit in that, but still...

    pocket pairs certainly are in his preflop range, so I'm all-in on the turn. As played, call and win some and lose some. 900 at a 2300 pot, he certainly should be bluffing occasionally so this is never going to be a terrible call.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    nopair said:
    I missed that you had a flush draw, so mostly ignore my comments above. I was thinking you just had aces with the a jack kicker, and so you weren't really drawing to anything except hitting your kicker. In reality, you had a flush draw, so presumably you would call or bet the river if it came a heart or a jack. There is certainly merit in that, but still...

    pocket pairs certainly are in his preflop range, so I'm all-in on the turn. As played, call and win some and lose some. 900 at a 2300 pot, he certainly should be bluffing occasionally so this is never going to be a terrible call.
    Going all in on turn seems like suicide. We immediately fold out everything we beat, and get called by the two main hands that crush us.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    Suppose the opponent has 99. Why do you not want to fold him out? One of two things happens on the river... he either spikes a 9, which sucks totally, or he bluffs again, and you fold. So it should be clear we want 99 out in both scenarios.

    I don't like much about this hand starting with the preflop raise size, but when we check the turn, and the other dude bets, there is no way we should ever not see the showdown here. Yes, you could let the river card come, hope it doesn't help him, and then call, but well....

    Okay, I bet the ace on the turn. Checking/calling and checking/checkraising are both inviting big pots. I don't have the hand to play a big pot. I bet the turn, and then if he raises or calls, I give him the respect his play deserves. This passive checking just gets us in trouble... it may in fact be _profitable_ trouble, but I don't like it much.
  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    5:21PM edited 5:21PM Like
    Suppose the opponent has 99. Why do you not want to fold him out? One of two things happens on the river... he either spikes a 9, which sucks totally, or he bluffs again, and you fold. So it should be clear we want 99 out in both scenarios.

    I don't like much about this hand starting with the preflop raise size, but when we check the turn, and the other dude bets, there is no way we should ever not see the showdown here. Yes, you could let the river card come, hope it doesn't help him, and then call, but well....

    Okay, I bet the ace on the turn. Checking/calling and checking/checkraising are both inviting big pots. I don't have the hand to play a big pot. I bet the turn, and then if he raises or calls, I give him the respect his play deserves. This passive checking just gets us in trouble... it may in fact be _profitable_ trouble, but I don't like it much.
    .

    nopair, in playing poker we are not looking for the easiest lines, but the most profitable.

    If I checkraise the turn, I fold out all hands in his range that I am beating and arrive at the river against 66, 55, A5s, 65s, AA, and AK. Yes, I don't need to worry about losing on the river, but allowing people to make mistakes with two outers and having to play some poker is how we make money. I know that passive play invites decisions that are not as clear, but it also places our opponents in difficult spots with their range and protects other hands with in our range in similar spots in smaller player pools.

    I have been experimenting with larger 4x to 6x raises OOP, especially in deeper stack poker making it more difficult for players in position to call. This is not too uncommon in these larger games. I am developing frequencies and ranges based on the the preflop material Bart and Conlin released for Top Section. I am 3! here about 60% of the time randomizing with suits and a second randomizer. It is non-standard, but I stand by the play. If you do not like AJs or my frequency that is different. In fact, maybe I should be more aggressive than 60% vs button steal with AJs being so close to the top of my range.

    Preflop our V will call with almost all his pairs, many, if not all of suited connectors, let's cut down his price that we are offering here. (Actually, he is slightly wider than that, because I know now from a discussion after the hand that his range includes one-gappers pre, too.)

    I have invited uncertainty or as you call it "trouble" in this hand, but "trouble" is not always a bad thing. It forces us to play some poker.

    I have more thoughts on this topic "easy-decision poker" vs "difficult-decision poker" that I will share later. Yes, passive lines do make for difficult decisions, but sometimes they are the better line.


  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    There is nothing wrong with trouble. There is plenty wrong with putting yourself in trouble but not putting your opponent in trouble.

    Finding the most EV+ way to play in general is difficult. Discussing it in specific is more difficult since the rest of us aren't sitting there watching the opponent or having dozens of hands with them. We can in general though see better lines.

    What is better: winning a smaller pot on the turn or losing a bigger pot on the river? It's an absolute that we want to fold out any hand that we will let successfully bluff us on the river.

    If our opponent here has 99...
    - we would want to get him to fold if he was NOT going to bluff the river, or call any bet from us when we have the best
    - we would want to get him to fold if we were NOT going to call his river bluff if we miss
    - we would want him IN if he was going to bluff the river, and we WERE going to call

    We don't know for sure what he is going to do, but we have to estimate the EV in the various circumstances, including when we improve our hand and when we don't. The most profitable line with a marginal hand is usually not the one involving the biggest pots... but sometimes it could be.

    Given that the player did bet the river when a blank hits, then merely calling the turn was right... unless he is only betting because he had 88 and would not have bet otherwise.

    We can't know for sure the best line, but there are some things we do know:
    1) the probable most likely way for us to win this pot is to checkraise the turn
    2) the probable second most likely is to lead all-in on the river (1 and 2 might possibly be reversed)
    3) the third most likely way to win the pot is to call the river (including check-check on the river)
    4) we never win the pot by folding
    5) we may be up against 55 and drawing dead so we can't win no matter what

    (I take back what I said about the initial AJ bet sizing if it is part of an overall plan. You said "experimenting" which sounded more random to me. I have no problem with commonly opening for larger than your opponents do if it is part of an organized line of play. In other words, if you were only going to open larger once a day as an experiment, I wouldn't do it with AJ suited, but if you do it with lots of hands, fine.)

    Still, my point is, once you check the ace, I'm not folding this hand.
  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    I appreciate everyone's feedback.

    I am comfortable with preflop, flop and turn play. I would love some feedback from those who have listened to Bart and Conlan's Top Section Preflop Podcasts and hear some thoughts on sizing, hand selection and frequency.

    On the turn I think he has many bluffs that he shuts down on the River and only continues with a few of the them. Value hands he has are A5s, 55, 66, 65s, maybe 54s, 88, AdKd, AxKh, AdQd. Bluffs are the busted flush and straight draws.

    After serious long consideration I call. He tables 8 9 .

    After the hand he said he shows up with AdKd...not many others, so he had less value than I thought. He also said would not of been bluffing many of his flush draws. Then he said, "that is too much talk." Sounded like he was only bluffing with his straight and flush draw combos. He also said that he was not trying to fold an A ;h: since that blocks A K and A Q . He though he could some folds from other A's, especially squeezing A's.

    I am not just 5xing, one time a session with these large OOP raises from the blinds. I have increased my sizing across the board from OOP. So far it has been quite interesting. We need more samples.

    I was very interested in getting feedback on my river play. I think @Hammah is right against better players I should have more calls here, since they have more of a bluffing frequency. Well, back to the tables tonight where I had an excellent session, but I will post the hand I might of butchered a little later. I need some help on that one.
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