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Min raising in position

I often come across spots where it seems like a good idea to min raise in position with a medium strength hand to get to a cheap showdown; eg. hand that I played at $5/$5:

I have J J on the button, raise a limper to $20, V calls in BB, limper folds, pot is $50

Flop K 5 2 V checks, I check back

Turn 2 V bets $40, I make it $80, V calls

River blank V checks, I check

If instead I call the turn, pot is $130, V might bet $80 and I hero call sometimes putting him on FD which he does have sometimes and other times he shows up with K10, KJ etc. But when I min raise turn, most people just auto-check river and I get to a cheaper showdown ($40 less in this case)

Other parts of his range that I beat like 66, 77 are very unlikely to put more money in the pot so it's not a big deal if he folds them

Also, no one folds a FD to a min raise so I get some sick thin value on the turn too :)

And of course it's a snap fold if I get 3bet

Thoughts and ideas on this?
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Comments

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,450Subscriber
    On a dry board it would be better to call, re-evaluate river. He has more Kx than FDs here.

    You can use this play when you suspect your opponent has picked up more outs on the turn and leads into you in a manner that doesn't fit a strong hand. Like if he bets 40% pot on the turn when a possible very unlikely straight comes in and a FD hits the turn. It is quite possible he has he picked up equity like the FD or pair + SD or is just trying to get a cheap SD himself.

    At times a bad player will donk bet a set afraid of the straight but consider the number of combos of sets (12) at most vs all the pair + draws or double draws he picks up. Raise the amount you think is appropriate. If he really hits the straight he usually bets more.

    So at times I will raise what I would have bet anyways on the turn possibly more. The thing is a bad player who picked up a stronger equity hand will almost always call that raise and shove the river or bet large on the river which makes it easy to fold. And if he comes over the top you have your answer. It is the same as paying for the turn and river.

    So what is different than your hand about paying the river?

    Your opponent will not put in anymore money if he misses with the draw if you just call.
    On your hand if you just call you can still get another bet from a hand like 99 where if you raise that hand is likely to fold the turn.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    edited May 2017
    {changed my mind}
  • pray4blank Posts: 139Subscriber
    I like the general concept and do it myself occasionally. I think it is a highly exploitative play, though, and thus highly exploitable. I'm generally doing it to very specific villains who I know will become instantly passive at any agressive action I take; it is often part of some really weird line like yours, where I check flop, raise turn, check river...but it's probably more often when I ended up checking top pair than when I checked something like an underpair.

    I don't know this villain in this hand, so who can say if it's the best idea here. There is definitely a place for it, though.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    It's called a 'freeze play' and it's been around for a long time. The problem with it is that it doesn't fit the criteria for betting or raising. When you raise it should be for value or as a bluff. There are a bunch of bonus criteria that come along for the ride but they can't be the sole reason to bet or raise as then you'd be betting or raising way too often.

    When you min-raise this turn, a better hand is rarely folding and a worse hand isn't often calling (except for a BDFD that is getting the expressed price to continue and could intern blow you off the best hand if they 3b.) Worse, you fold out bluffs that may have continued on the river.

    Call and use your positional advantage at the end.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    So we are raising so he doesn't bet KJ OTR and we get to turn over our hand and still lose? I don't see the point unless we are actually getting value from a FD in which case we still want to get a call from A high OTR. Unlikely but as stated their are 2 main reason for betting we should stick with.

    Also we only get one street from 99/TT etc where we may be able to squeeze out more "thin" value OTR.
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