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James' WSOP Hand #1

To make the most of my time here at the WSOP, I am going to try to post one hand/day to this forum for feedback. Here's my first! Curious what you all think about each street.

2/5 1k max at Rio Convention Center

Hero has been at the table 1-2 orbits and has a neutral image. Stack is $1k.

Main villain is a 30s Asian who appears to be playing tight, but I have not observed many hands yet. Stack is $575.

To the hand:. Villain limps UTG. One fold and V2 makes it $15 in UTG + 2 (most common raise size at the table which I found odd). Hero in MP looks down at A K and makes it 50. V1 calls and V2 calls.

Flop ($152): A A Q
Checks around. Maybe I should have bet small, but I think this could go either way. I think both Vs have a lot of underpairs that probably won't call much unless I feign weakness. People love to assume the 3 bettor has AK.

Turn ($152): 7
Checks to me and I bet 75. Maybe could have sized this larger targeting K but I also wanted queens and underpairs to take one off. Next, V1 check raises to $200. V2 folds. Hero calls. 125 more for a pot of 425 gives me almost 3.5:1. I thought a bit but really couldn't figure out what flushes someone would limp/call a 3 bet here. I felt like he was representing exactly pocket 7s. Maybe AQ but that would be very strange preflop play and there is only one other Ace in the deck.

River ($552): 9
V shoves for $325 more. I thought about this a little longer on the river. Nothing changed on the river and I am getting good pot odds to call once again. I felt like this was 77 or a bluff. There are a lot of pocket pairs in V1 range which I think makes him less likely to bluff (showdown value). But his value range was so narrow I felt like I should maybe call. But then again I wondered if this situation was one where "they just have to have it". What should hero do???

Comments

  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    "What should hero do???"
    Bet the flop.

    "I feign weakness"
    You didn't really feign weakness, you acted weak, and now clubs, 99 and 77 beat you.
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 325Subscriber
    nopair said:
    "What should hero do???"
    Bet the flop.

    "I feign weakness"
    You didn't really feign weakness, you acted weak, and now clubs, 99 and 77 beat you.
    I don't understand the differentiation you are trying to make between feign weakness and acting weak or why it matters. I also don't think you put much thought into your response.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    He doesn't mean "you're acting weak" he means that you took a weak line.

    Bet the flop as you can get called by weaker aces, queens, flush draws, gutters, etc. You want to start building the pot and you also want to get money in before some action killing card rolls off or one of the two villains realizes his equity for free (even if it is a small amount.)

    When UTG now check-raises the turn he has a hand. Could it be a worse ace or a hand like K T×? I guess. But it could also be 77, A7 or a bunch of flushes. Calling the check-raise is ok I suppose (as you're getting ~3-to-1 to continue) and you could improve or he could shutdown. That said, when he shoves the river, you beat bluffs and weaker aces and you need to be good a little better than a third of the time. You said nothing changed on the river but something did... he shoved! I guess you can call but I'm not stoked about it.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    bet flop for sure. any hand that got a piece of this, whther its an Ax or a FD will call a bet here.

    as played I call but Im not liking it like the others posted.
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 325Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Thanks for your responses!

    The range you guys assign V is wider than I expected given his limp/call 3 bet preflop line. What K X could he have? What weaker aces does he have?

    Consensus so far is that my flop play was a mistake. I think I agree. Given my more narrow ranging of V1 I don't think he ever calls a flop bet, but the initial raiser often may since he is the one who can have K X or Ax and sometimes even Qx. He was closing the action pre and calling 35 into a pot of 115 so we can keep his range relatively wide.

    Rocketman, I agree that the one thing that did change on the river was the V shove. This is why I didn't make a snap call--there was new info to process.

    Spoiler:
    Hero tanks about a minute and makes the call. V flips over 88 and hero is good. I guess I induced a bluff with my weak line. Glad he wasn't deeper.


  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    James2748 said:
    I don't understand the differentiation you are trying to make between feign weakness and acting weak or why it matters. I also don't think you put much thought into your response.
    I put a lot of thought in my reply, but the other replies seem to have gotten you thinking about the hand more productively. Again, you didn't pretend weakness, you played weakly. It's like saying you are feigning being shot when blood is spurting out of a bullet hole in your chest.

    Another thing, you even say most people put a raiser on AK most of the time... and it is a cardinal rule of both limit and no limit holdem that if your hand is essentially face up, don't try and pretend it isn't. They put you on AK; you have AK... bet the hand so that whatever they do is wrong, and definitely don't ever give them free cards when you have the hand they think you have!

    The pot is 150. Opponent has 525. No pocket pair is going to give you action if they put you on AK, but flush draws and other aces might. Giving free cards to pocket pairs here is malpractice. Move in and look to get called by aces or maybe royal flush draws. If nobody calls, fine, take the 150. If you want to find a 250 or so bet to give a flush draw poor odds that they may take, fine too, but those are the options.

    Ask yourself, if you had 77 on this flop, what would you hope the preflop raiser (that you put on AK to boot) would do. If you choose the obvious answer of check, then don't do that when you have the AK yourself.

    (If you want to play weak to induce bluffs, fine, followthrough and call, but don't do that when you have the hand they most likely put you on as they will be making more bets when they beat you and less bets when they are bluffing.)
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 325Subscriber
    Ok I guess the semantics don't matter to me. Whatever you want to call it. I had a strong hand and played weak. That's what I meant when I said I feigned weakness.

    How can they make a mistake when they know what I have?

    If I have 77, sure I want the other guy with AK to check. But I also don't want to be forced to look him up after he checks a FD board that most would bet. His check makes it less likely that he has AK. I'm not defending my flop check...I'm convinced a bet is better (although not a large one as you advise). Just explaining the merit behind a check. At the end of the day, I agree with you that a bet is better. We just might disagree on HOW much better a bet is than a check.

    Didn't mean to berate your first post, but I don't see how we are super worried about 99 and for some reason it read like you were talking down to me without offering much in the way of your own analysis. Thanks for your feedback.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    You should be worried about 99, and 88 and 77. Those are the hands that it is a large mistake to lose to.

    You should be focusing on winning or losing this pot to: 1) clubs or 2) Ax. Fishing for action from any other hand is seriously EV- for you.

    These hands shouldn't ever beat you for free: 1) pocket pairs, 2) gutshot broadways, especially K♣J♦ and K♣T♦ or K♠T♠, 3) hands like 5♠4♠.

    If you make a pot size or so type bet, you should drive all those second group out, or at least cause them to make an EV mistake by calling. When you give all these dangerous hands a free card, you are making a big mistake.

    Now also do the math on the way you played the hand. It came a 9 and 7, and the opponent had 88, so obviously those cards could have just as easily caused you to lose the pot. If you are inducing bluffs, you can't then fold.

    So how often will it be that when you check the bettor is giving his money away with 88, rather than beating you with 99 or 77? If you bet the pot and take it three times, that is $450 for you. In contrast, suppose three times your opponents get free cards and bet, and you win two of the three... your profit for the three hands would be $625, or only about $75 per hand better than the $450. If you only win half the time it is a loss and if you lose 2 out of three it's a huge loss.

    Instead of playing a bunch of hands where sometimes opponents make a mistake and people bluff you money, and sometimes you make a mistake and you give them the pot via free cards... why not take a line of play where to beat you your opponents _always_ have to make a mistake (except obviously when AQ and QQ beat you)?

    Moving all in, nobody gets the right odds against you. Making a pot size or better bet, nobody is getting odds against you except the royal flush draws. The gutshots or baby pocket pairs will gift call you sometimes, but focusing on them is almost certainly EV- play, and at the least, only trivially profitable compared to the existing $150 pot.

    If someone has a good hand, take your profit from your significant edge over them. If nobody has anything other than gut shots or backdoor flushes or pocket pairs, either bet and take the pot or make them make a mistake to beat you.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,544Subscriber
    I agree with betting the flop for the reasons stated.
    On the turn, I feel this is a shove or fold spot. Basically, if you are never folding the river if a blank comes, and the majority of his range consists of hands that will be either draws, Ax, or boats, then shove the turn to charge the draws and get value from weaker hands. Or fold (probably less ideal) if you feel you are up against too many hands that you are drawing thin to.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    I'm going to respond before reading the spoiler, then again after reading it.

    Before spoiler: IMO checking or betting flop is fine, though I would lean towards betting. There are hands like KQs and QJs and flush draws and even a hand like TT, JJ, or KK that will take a peel. Keep in mind the main villain limped UTG, then cold called a 3bet after it was raised in front of him. Premiums are absolutely in his range.

    Once you bet the turn and get check raised with a player still to act in the middle, his hand seems very strong. You're going to be looking at QQ, 77, AxKc, and KJcc. There might be a few Kc combo draws in there like KcQs and rarely weaker aces, but not many. I'm fine with peeling to see if we improve, and see what V does on river, but when he shoves I'm going to snap fold. Now I'll read the spoiler.

    Spoiler:
    Okay this guy just completely spazzed. That can happen live, but with no reads I would never count on it...especially on a board like this. I'm not trying to be critical, but IMO you made a questionable call with a good result.
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 325Subscriber
    Rysher8 said:
    I'm going to respond before reading the spoiler, then again after reading it.

    Before spoiler: IMO checking or betting flop is fine, though I would lean towards betting. There are hands like KQs and QJs and flush draws and even a hand like TT, JJ, or KK that will take a peel. Keep in mind the main villain limped UTG, then cold called a 3bet after it was raised in front of him. Premiums are absolutely in his range.

    Once you bet the turn and get check raised with a player still to act in the middle, his hand seems very strong. You're going to be looking at QQ, 77, AxKc, and KJcc. There might be a few Kc combo draws in there like KcQs and rarely weaker aces, but not many. I'm fine with peeling to see if we improve, and see what V does on river, but when he shoves I'm going to snap fold. Now I'll read the spoiler.

    Spoiler:
    Okay this guy just completely spazzed. That can happen live, but with no reads I would never count on it...especially on a board like this. I'm not trying to be critical, but IMO you made a questionable call with a good result.
    Thanks for your response. If my river call was no good, then my error was in ranging the V too narrowly based on his preflop line. I didn't give him any flushing hands or any super premiums like QQ or AK. I don't often see a limp/call 3 bet line outside of 1/2. The few times I can remember in 2/5, it was always a small to medium PP. But, I've only got something like 300 hours of 2/5 under my belt so obviously a very small sample size. It sounds like others experiences differ, so I think I was giving too much credibility to my limited sample.
    by 1Rysher8
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 325Subscriber
    workinghard said:
    I agree with betting the flop for the reasons stated.
    On the turn, I feel this is a shove or fold spot. Basically, if you are never folding the river if a blank comes, and the majority of his range consists of hands that will be either draws, Ax, or boats, then shove the turn to charge the draws and get value from weaker hands. Or fold (probably less ideal) if you feel you are up against too many hands that you are drawing thin to.
    Yeah I think this once again comes down to the range I assign the V. At the time I told myself he either had a bluff or he was full. Vs this range, it makes no sense to shove. However, if I give him a wider range that includes flushes and flush draws on the turn as well as Ax, it becomes less clear what to do. I think in this case he would have more flush combos than flush draws.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    After the 7♣ comes on the turn, shoving is the only action that makes sense.
    Now every pocket pair can go from two outs to 10, and every Ax could go from 3 outs to 11.

    Giving free cards to two outers is one thing, giving a free card to a ten-outer like 8♣8x is giving away way too much value on the mere hope of catching a donk bet on the river.
  • Krista Posts: 166Subscriber
    In my opinion, the key to this hand is that it takes place at the Rio during WSOP. I have some considerable experience playing 2-5 at Vegas casinos - and some experience playing at the Rio. The players at the Rio can be completely clueless and might have very very little experience. In a 2-5 game on Tuesday in September at the Aria, you can fold this hand to the river shove. At the Rio during the WSOP, you can profitably call. I am not advocating playing badly at the Rio - just know that your opponents might have zero clue how to play so when you have a hand as strong as trip As with K kicker, folding is rarely going to be right.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    what the heck, @James2748?

    you said one hand per day!
    where's hand #2 & #3?

    c'mon man, let's get busy!
    or has @nopair got you down and you're not playing any more?

    :lol:
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 325Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    beauregard said:
    what the heck, @James2748?

    you said one hand per day!
    where's hand #2 & #3?

    c'mon man, let's get busy!
    or has @nopair got you down and you're not playing any more?

    :lol:
    I'm leaving Bellagio and was literally just thinking this. Thanks for keeping me honest, @beauregard !!!

    I have some make up work to do!
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    James2748 said:

    I'm leaving Bellagio and was literally just thinking this. Thanks for keeping me honest, @beauregard !!!

    I have some make up work to do!
    Hey... until I get there... I'm trying to get my WSOP gameface on... need to prepare for what's out there!
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