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How to combat the 3b pre in cash games during the WSOP

OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
edited June 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
So I'm playing in Vegas for the first time. Honestly I'm actually running terrible as I'm in a 160hr down swing, which started before I left Australia. A big part of my down swing has been tilt early on. But coming over here to play and work on my game has been helpful in plugging this leak. The other factor is that I haven't experienced a down swing since August 2016 so it was initially a shock to the system and entitlement tilt.
What I'm finding over here while getting crushed with variance is the $2/5 $1000k cap game is a lot more aggressive then the game we play back at home.
I feel some of the local regs are light 3b pre. When 3b, I will fold the bottom of my range, call some of my mid range in position and 4 bet top of my range then they would fold. Very ABC I know but because of how I'm running Im trying to tighten up. I also have been listening to a lot of The Grind pod cast and others from Bart and Tuckman about variance, tilt and I've been taking notes at the table to tighten my opening range. All this has been helpful.

This hand I went a different angle as I would normally been folding as I don't think calling a 3b with AJ is good, The other night I was playing ABC when 3b but this time I felt he had a pair 9 9, 10 10, Ax or Kx. If I ran into the top of his range oh well. $700-$800 deep and I opened the AJs on the button $30. The V in the hand who has 3b me twice already made it $150 from the SB. This time I thought it was time to fight back, Maybe it was ego and I should of avoided pre flop wars, but every time I 4b they fold so I thought since I could hopefully get him to fold some of those pairs and possibly AQ I decide to 4b my AJs to $495. I went slightly larger to pretty much say I'm going all in and not folding now. He thought for some time and decided to call. I thought this was very odd to just call and I would love to know his reason for calling with the hand he had...
The flop came QJ6
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Comments

  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    Sorry guys I don't know what happened to the rest of the hand I typed. This has happened before if someone can help?
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    ur 800 deep and 4! to 495?

    Get it in.

    OMGitsworm- maybe take a break? as someone who tilts a lot, a sure fire sign I need to get the fuck up and walk around or leave is when I start thinking everybody is bluffing me.
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 348SubscriberProfessional
    edited June 2017
    from someone who can be 3betting light from the SB vs a LP open, i think ajs is too good to turn into a bluff here. i wud rather choose hands like a4-a5s, ajos, kqos, atos etc.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    Come up with a range for the villain and look up AJs equity against it. You have plenty of equity to call. I assume you open every A on the btn. What are you doing with every A worse than AJs? Your sizing also makes no sense. I think you are too deep to try and develop a 4bet shoving range, but you are basically committing yourself with betting 495.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Because of his 3b sizing and your stack depth a 4b is a difficult proposition but $300-$325 makes way more sense. That way, you can do it with value hands or bluffs and call with the middle of your range. When you 2x his 3b, you only need him to fold ~60% of his range to instantly make a profit.

    In the past I've called here a lot but when you're dealing with somebody who does not have a well constructed 3betting range, it's better to 4b or fold with these stacks.

    Let's say this villain is 3betting ~15% of his hands from the SB. This means that he probably is only continuing with ~4%. That's only ~25% of his hands going forward. Right away you're showing an instant profit. So... why wouldn't we just 4bet every time he 3bets? Well, then we'd be out of control. So by choosing the hands at the top of our range (and AJs is definitely near the top of our button raising range) while scattering in a few from the bottom (preferably with blockers and playability) we stay in control. You also need to factor in that some live poker players will call too wide so it's better to have a good hand (or a playable hand) going forward.

    When we call here (instead of 4betting or folding) we set up a spot where yes, we have position and offen a range advantage (versus an overactive 3better) but we also have a low SPR and they have the initiative. Couple that with the fact that we (both) miss so goddamn much and we end up folding 2/3rds of the time (not to mention that we lose a non-zero amount when we do continue.)

    If we were 100bb deep I'd jam btw but since we're at 150bb+ we can 4b fold a few hands. It never feels right to put in 35%+ of of the effective stacks and then fold but when this villain jams (instead of calling or folding) we don't do very well against that range. In theory we have ~30% equity going forward so math wise we should call it off (especially if he has any air) but in the real world I'd fold the bottom and the lower-top. Of everything I just wrote this will be the most unpopular and incorrect (and the rest of it probably is as well!)

    Good luck on the rest of your trip
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    edited June 2017
    OMGitsWorm said:
    .............. entitlement tilt..........If I ran into the top of his range oh well........ it was ego.........
    Made you react differently than you normally would, those type of decisions are your entire downswing.
    OTTH
    You open raised to $30 OTB, SB 3! to $150 he has a hand here!
    Calling IP with this hand is a much better option.
    AP
    Guess you have to hand him over your chips...
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    I'll echo Letmewin1 and say V almost always has a real hand with the prior action and this sizing. You made a slightly larger than standard open on the button. Out of position with no dead money out there and facing a large preflop raise, a decent small blind is so often just dropping his $2 and moving on to the next hand. For him to pop it 5x to $150 when you're about $750 deep, I would put his range at AQs+ and TT+, and the lower end of that range is probably optimistic. To me this is a pretty trivial fold, with the caveat that I'm now going to keep this guy on close watch since he's 3bet us more than normal.
  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    squishmytomato said:
    from someone who can be 3betting light from the SB vs a LP open, i think ajs is too good to turn into a bluff here. i wud rather choose hands like a4-a5s, ajos, kqos, atos etc.
    Thanks Squishy. Would you be 4b smaller and folding to a shove or 4b and calling off any shove given stacks?
    Or just flating and using position going forward?

    I still can't work out what happens to the rest of the post I typed, so I will type some now.

    He ended up having KQo.
    The questions I had
    • Why would, what seem like a local pro (back pack, headphones and chips in his bag) just call with that hand given stack sizes?
    • should you avoid pre flop wars because that's what I feel ended up happening with his call







  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    There is zero chance he is a pro
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    Rocketman74 said:
    There is zero chance he is a pro
    Yeah, I'm shocked to see him show up with KQ here. Probably one of these up and coming guys who think blockers hold the key to nirvana.
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Villain three bet twice before and got no resistance. I'm not surprised to see him three bet with any hand he wants to play here. Villain will keep doing it until you push him back.

    As for the thread title, assume while playing side games at the WSOP you will have a LOT more aggression... the room is filled with people who think they can outplay everybody at this "smaller game than I should be playing at because I am soooo awesome but don't have the bankroll to be playing bigger".

    If you would have shoved preflop in this hand, we actually could be having a different conversation here about almost the same thing... how light three betting is prevalent at the Rio, and what to do about it.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,302Pro
    I hate to say this, but short stack and change tables a lot. Dont play in the RIO if thats where the grinders are. I will be playing PLO or other games there but if the games are bad Ill be on the first cab to the smallest most random room that has a PLO game.
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 348SubscriberProfessional
    OMGitsWorm said:


    Thanks Squishy. Would you be 4b smaller and folding to a shove or 4b and calling off any shove given stacks?
    Or just flating and using position going forward?

    I still can't work out what happens to the rest of the post I typed, so I will type some now.

    He ended up having KQo.
    The questions I had
    • Why would, what seem like a local pro (back pack, headphones and chips in his bag) just call with that hand given stack sizes?
    • should you avoid pre flop wars because that's what I feel ended up happening with his call

    i wud NOT be 4 betting because this hand is too good to turn into a bluff, and by 4 betting it ur essentially turning it into a bluff. if u want to have some 4 bet bluffs, see my original post. u can also be 4 betting qq+ and aks for value along with a few select bluffs.

    flat and play a pot IP.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,288Subscriber
    Gotta love the wannabes who have watched too many Durr videos.
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