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Juicy 2/5 w/ Button Straddle and Controversial Hand Pre

luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
edited June 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hand starts with a button straddle to 10 dollars. Hero has 2700 and villain in question has 1300 behind.
History with villain: he is a middle aged white guy. A little chubby. Plays a decent number of hands. Is a recreational player that has shown a tendency to call bets. He has also seen us turn over a few semi bluffs that got there as well as a few low equity bluffs. He might have a sense that we are maniacal and being a rec doesn't know the proper way to combat that.

Hero in sb w/ 4 8 completes to 10 to play pots against a rec heavy straightforward table.
Villain in bb completes to 10
Folds around
Button checks
(30) 10 8 4
Hero leads 20
Villain raises to 40, button folds, back on us
Hero...

Folding is never an option here. We block big hands that have us beat like 44, 88, 108, 104. And with these hands it seems like he might raise a bit larger.
It almost feels like he might be raising flop with this particular sizing, to freeze the turn action with a ten.

So our options are
A. 3bet flop, lead turn
B. 3bet flop, check turn
C. Call flop, lead turn
D. Call flop, check turn

I don't like option A or B because we bloat the pot out of position and have a chance of folding out the 10's that we are beating. And when the 10s do call, they arnt going to have a willingness to pile in money on the turn after a 3bet flop.

I think C and D are probably the best of the 4, and I'm leaning more towards option C. I feel like a 10 will have a strong capacity for checking various turn cards after being called on flop to get to a cheap showdown.

Thoughts on how to play the flop and what plans for the turn and river are on various turn cards - overs to the 10, and unders.


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Comments

  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    Fold before the flop, fold on the flop.

    if you want to "to play pots against a rec heavy straightforward table", don't limp from the small blind after every player has passed, and if you do, don't play hands where not only do you not have a hammer to beat value out of your rec opponents with, you could be drawing dead, or possibly to a two-outer.
  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Thank you for your opinion. We are first to act.. straddle remember. And yes we want to play pots with recs over 130bb deep in this straddled pot and realistically since it's not raised going to the flop, it's like we are playing a single raised 2/5 pot 260 bb effective with villain and the button. No we are never folding flop to a min raise... do you hate money? He can definitely be raising with worse here with this sizing.

    And we are comfortable post navigating flops, turns and rivers, and do not need a "hammer" to profitably extract value from this competition.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    Definitely fold pre AIAEC

    3betting the flop and folding to a 4b (how cute do you want to get with this hand)

    Hard to give advice here when I think the limp/complete is so bad (sorry)
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    The way to play against players who play weak hands is not to play weaker hands than they do, out of position. (I glazed over the straddle on the button instead of UTG. Since you were first to open, first UTG from the small blind, this is even more of an instafold. If you play this hand from this position, you look to be playing 80%+ of your hands. What about 7♣3♣, would you play that? 8♣3♣?

    They'll deal another hand in a second... when you are on the button in better position with very likely a better hand.
  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Can we get past the preflop action for 2 seconds guys and analyze the situation we are in on the flop. You hate the call pre, Heard. Now let's analyze our options on the flop and what our game plan is.

    Besides we are calling 8 to win in all likelyhood 22 if not more in this limp heavy game. Only need to pull 26% equity To be breakeven. I think we are fine.

    And honestly our cards irrelevant against fish that we can outplay post. So yes we are playing this hand.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    I think pre flop was pretty much covered by @nopair and @Rocketman74
    AP
    Calling is probably better IMO, I don't think I'd like to get in a ton of money with bottom two in a limped pot.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    luckylouie530 said:
    Can we get past the preflop action for 2 seconds guys and analyze the situation we are in on the flop.
    Some advice from a former CLP podcaster:

    SOME MORE POKER ADVICE…
    I love all of the posts that say disregard everything I did before I got check raised all in on the river and just tell me what to do now. Its like, “hey Dad its me billy and I'm in jail. Don’t ask me why I got drunk (standard). Don’t ask me why I drove (yawn). Don’t ask me how my car ended up in a 7-11 (meh). Just tell me how to keep from getting buttfuqqed tonight.

    The truth is the beginning of the hand is the MOST important part…BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Just like w/ 9 ball every shot sets up the next shot(s).

  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    For people that suck post and at reading people. Yea probably shouldn't have 48 of clubs in their range. But with game flow and players we are playing with. It's fine. Now if anyone wants to give their two sense about why 48 is bad pre, save it. I already know this. This was a very special lineup of players that we are playing a lot of hands against and crushing this game. Analyze the situation to come up with the most profitable play.

    Seeking responses from people that have experience playing loose pre to exploit bad players and that are not going to just talk about preflop action.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    luckylouie530 said:
    For people that suck post and at reading people. Yea probably shouldn't have 48 of clubs in their range. But with game flow and players we are playing with. It's fine.
    ummm... no it's not but whatever. 3bet fold (your hand is not a monster)
  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Dude we're analyzing from the flop, not pre. And obviously 48 is a shit hand. But with the players we playing with( and how bad they are), it is profitable to play this hand regardless of what you think.

    And you're missing the boat completely. It would be profitable to play any hand against these guys. Now that we are in this situation. We are trying to find the most profitable line to extract max.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    I'm talking about post... 3bet fold
  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    Very detailed analysis.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    I really don't know what you're looking for here. Everyone says fold pre but you assure us that it's a good play against this line up.

    3bet the flop because although you have bottom two, lots of turns can ruin your hand and it appears that this villain has top pair (and you said he likes to call.) You want to take back the betting lead here. You're out of position... so if you just call you are at his mercy on the turn as if you check, he can check behind. I guess you can just call and b/f a lot of turns (like pretty much any face card) so go for it. I said to bet/fold because unless this is a special kind of villain, if he 4bets you, you're probably no good.

    Your description of this villain does not imply absolute drooler so I'm really at a loss. I also hate when people say, I know you think what I did was bad but trust me, I can overcome position and hand strength because these guys are so terrible. Your description of the table never included the caveat 'I can limp two pieces of shit from anywhere on the table and nobody will raise me (and I can play those pieces of shit profitabley because these guys are so awful.)

    I'll get out of your way now. I'm sorry if I came off rude in anyway. I look forward to hearing the rest of the hand.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    luckylouie530 said:
    Dude we're analyzing from the flop, not pre. And obviously 48 is a shit hand. But with the players we playing with( and how bad they are), it is profitable to play this hand regardless of what you think.

    And you're missing the boat completely. It would be profitable to play any hand against these guys. Now that we are in this situation. We are trying to find the most profitable line to extract max.
    Imagine for a moment, just a moment, that it's not actually profitable.

    Fold. Pre.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    I'm not trying to troll here, but this is a ridiculous call preflop first to act. You're either likely to get raised off your hand preflop, make an even worse call of a raise to ~$40, start a cascade of limpers with a hand that plays horrible multiway and is just begging for a cooler, or at best end up in the crappy situation you're in heads up to the flop.

    As played, I'm just going to call the min-raise and hold on. If he checks back the turn and you get a river brick, go ahead and lead out.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    luckylouie530 said:
    Thank you for your opinion however I reject it. We are first to act.. straddle remember. And yes we want to play pots with recs over 130bb deep in this straddled pot and realistically since it's not raised going to the flop, it's like we are playing a single raised 2/5 pot 260 bb effective with villain and the button. No we are never folding flop to a min raise... do you hate money? He can definitely be raising with worse here with this sizing.
    Btw I can't overemphasize how wrong IMO this type of thinking is. When you have a low suited three gapper 200+ bb deep, and those 200+ bb get in the middle, it will be amazing how often you will find yourself screwed. Higher straight? Check. Overflushed? Check. Dominated trips? Check. Two pair counterfeited? Check.

    I don't care how recreational the lineup is, playing that hand this deep is just begging to get stacked.
  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    Ok I hear you guys fold pre.
    But lets nswer some questions and clairify things ;

    RocketMan, sorry I was not clear in my description of this table and if I have come off rude in any way. I just try to get to the heart of the information as quickly as possible. And in all honesty I'm relaying a hand a fellow proffesional played that also crushes 2/5 and 5/10, and we were discussing the most profitable line once in this situation on the flop.

    Didn't think I would catch so much shit about the 4,8 ball. I knew there would be at least one comment and then we could get past that and get to the root of this hand because it's not preflop at all.

    This table was so passive and strait forward that they were only raising top 10. Therefore in the small with 2 in and only 8 to call, we decide to complete, with the intention of seeing a flop, and being able to narrow down their range so finely with every action they take, and being able to extract max, bluff them out, or dump through everything they tell us through bet sizing, timing, and real time tells. These guys were let's put this delicately, very fun to play with, and I'm sorry but I will not be disclosing the location of this particular game.

    Rysher. I hear you man. I really do. I guess you just had to be there to understand. Presence of straddle would actually make people play tighter than they normally would in this game. And if raised they had JJ+ and honestly you could just take a flop and know you were going to win a huge pot if you hit. Some of these guys would stackoff 200bb with AA on this flop and say damn you have 2 pair, I thought you were raising A10 or Jacks.
    As for getting in 200bb with the 4,8 ball I doubt that will ever be our game plan Often. But we will definitely be able to take down some tasty small to medium sized pots, and occasionally larger pots when we hit a boat, two pair or trips, and have a hammerlock on villains range.

    So as for flop.
    We discussed 3 bet and eventually rejected it. I think it would appear particularly strong 3 bettting this flop and would most likely fold out all of his 10s that we are trying to extract value out of. Through his min raise, this sizing really felt indicative of a one pair type hand mainly a ten trying to find out where it is at. Or possibly even a slow played JJ-KK. Yea some of these guys were flatting everything but AA pre. So the main line we were discussing was calling flop.

    Then to lead or check. I think our game plan should be to lead this turn. Him checking behind this turn would be a disaster for our hand on most turn cards. He min raised to 40 so there is 110 in pot. So I think we want to bet a sizing that a 10 will happily call turn and then feel compelled to call most rivers. And slow played JJ-KK are at our mercy, and are never raising us and never folding. But we are definitely targeting the 10s, and obviously if raised on turn we are dumping.

    Turn was favorable. (110) 10 8 4 2
    We lead 90
    Builds the pot. Lots of unfavorable river cards, both action killing and hand killing. And if raised we can be assured we are beat.

    Game plan for river 290 in pot

    J-A
    all unfavorable because they are action killing and potentially hand killing. But I think there is still value to be had from a 10 that did not turn top two or from JJ-KK that did not make a set. Bet sizing obviously has to be small. So what's the largest we can bet and still get looked up by a one pair hand. I think if we bet a black chip on river he is going to be hard pressed to fold his pair.

    10,2. X,F

    4,8 that does not complete BDFD.
    Going for the max now. We have the best hand here always because he would have raised all hands that beat us on turn scared of a BDFD. I'm thinking a bet of close to full pot is in order. 4 or 8 counterfeits two pairs that would make him apprehensive of calling. 250 -275 seems suffice and will get looked up by a 10. And over pair is never folding.

    Diamonds.
    Small sizing across safe diamonds rivers. Probably also a black chip bet. If raised fold. This guy has no capacity for bluff raising rivers.

    3,5,6,7,9.
    I think these are definitely the most interesting rivers because they don't change the board as drastically as all previous cards have except for 5 and 9 which completes 67 being double gutted on the flop. Curious as to what you guys think proper sizing here would be.

    Also curious with thoughts on flop and turn play and general game plan.
    by 1Rysher8
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    luckylouie530 said:
    Some of these guys would stackoff 200bb with AA on this flop and say damn you have 2 pair, I thought you were raising A10 or Jacks.
    luckylouie530 said:
    We discussed 3 bet and eventually rejected it. I think it would appear particularly strong 3 bettting this flop and would most likely fold out all of his 10s that we are trying to extract value out of. Through his min raise, this sizing really felt indicative of a one pair type hand mainly a ten trying to find out where it is at. Or possibly even a slow played JJ-KK. Yea some of these guys were flatting everything but AA pre. So the main line we were discussing was calling flop.
    You see how these two statements contradict each other, no?

    ----

    When this villain min-raises the flop and then calls the turn, I'd put him on one pair more than a draw. I'm not saying he can't have a draw, it's just more likely a T (KT, QT, T9, etc.)
  • luckylouieluckylouie Posts: 42Subscriber
    Even though we know aces are essentially the same thing as a 10 here, villain does not see it the same way. Villain is an amateur who will pile money in with aces and just call with a 10. If we thought that it was likely for him to have aces then 3 bet would be considered more strongly. But he's never limping aces to trap. Always just trying to get people to fold pre and win the blinds.

    I see what you are saying but these guys play AA and JJ-KK very differently. They'll stack off with aces and bluff catch KK-JJ. Very bizarre lol.

    And yes I agree 100% villain never have a draw here actually. He's never minraising a draw on this board. We squarely put him on a 10 and rarely JJ-KK and maybe 1 combo of aces.

    I was wondering what you thought of sizing across the various rivers
  • fozbo Posts: 104Subscriber
    I think you can go for larger sizing on 3,5,6,7,9, to target overpairs and 10s. Maybe 2/3 pot.

    Also if you had all this planned out during the hand and you can be pinpoint accurate in determining villans ranges I don't hate the 8,4 pre. Idk why everyone Is so held up on it, I feel like when you have opponents that are very transparent, ATC can be played. ( not saying they should be played. But they can be.)
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