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2/5 - weird 4bet hand

pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
edited June 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Very weirdly played hand with non-standard bet sizings...


Hero has a lag image. I usually open more often than anybody else at the table, so I'm used to thinking players adjusting by 3betting me wider.

Villain is a somewhat aggro transgender woman. She showed once when she opened 34s UTG and took it down OTF. She 3bet me once to $100 in position when I opened to $20 and got a caller (she got folds around). I have played with her before, and she is a fairly active 3better in general. Also, she does things like make tiny bets in big pots, then smashes turns or rivers. Sometimes floats a bit in spots, etc.

On to the hand...

Effective stacks are about $1150.

Preflop:
Hero opens MP to $20 with TcTs. Two callers. Villain 3bets to $100 in CO. I think she can have various SCs, PPs, suited broadways, AQ+, etc. Folds to hero.
Hero decides to 4bet to $255. I feel like she's going to call me with pretty much her whole range in position, but I feel fine betting a lot of flops and shipping some turns. I could have went a bit larger, but then I'm mostly just folding out the worst of her range, and feel less comfortable when she flats. I could flat the 3bet, but I really hate the idea of getting into passive check/call mode against a wide range, and don't think I can get correct implied odds to set-mine. Thoughts?

Flop ($550):
Ad8c3d

Hero?? I feel like this is a weird spot after 4betting. I could bet big and take it down against a lot of her air, but I feel like she's going to try to float or raise a lot of small bets. I don't want to x/f just because there's an ace.

Hero checks. Villain bets $145. Hero x/r to $325. (I decided I could play both AK or AA like this, and just want to fold out her equity or try to better suss out what she has). Villain calls... But I still don't think she necessarily has to have an ace or even a pair or draw. Also, I think she probably would have just jammed over me if she had AK.

After her call I'm planning on just shipping most bricks on the turn now that so much is invested.

Turn ($1200):
Jd
Now AJ got there, flush draws got there, and hands like AxQd are probably never folding at this point (if AQ ever was folding)... Hero checks with $570 behind... Villain checks.

River ($1200):
4c
I considered jamming, but decide there's still not that many better hands I can get to fold.... Villain bets $315. Can I possibly be ahead here? It just seems really weird after the turn check. Would she actually try to value-bet AQ exactly, or some other random aces that she might show up with?

Comments

  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited June 2017
    Pre is OK but flatting is my go to usually, but OOP were happier to build the pot to make stacking off post more correct.

    Think you have to commit to a thin 2-barrel for stacks (or bet flop, x/c brick turns), or just check/fold flop. Im nitty so lean toward x/f. Villain has way too much leverage against us here, has lots of Ax in their range, and we're giving villain good chance to bluff us off an even bigger pot ott if we x/c flop here.

    This spot does indeed suck.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    edited June 2017

    I don't mind pre-flop (if your reads are accurate.) Your sizing is fine (and I might even make it smaller.)

    The flop check is fine but I'm not sure I'd check-raise as I'm kinda lost as to what you're trying to do. Is it for value? That's super thin. Is it a bluff? I think your hand is too good to make that play. It appears that you're trying to rep a big hand and fold out JJ-KK, which I guess would often work but she's not releasing an ace. I also don't get your plan to shove most turns either.

    On the turn you say that AJ got there but AJ was already there. Diamonds also get there and since you don't have one, she could. I guess you could shove but that seems optimistic at best.

    By the river I'm totally lost (and it appears you are as well.) You can shove as like you said, her turn check gave the green light. You can c/c which just appears to be a guess or you can check-fold which is another guess.

    This whole hand seems very villain/hero dependent. After pre-flop I'm not sure anyone can really help.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I usually flat pre but don't mind mixing in some 4 bets.

    Flop i always check, unless i'm betting my range, a bet is very inefficient. I would not c/r, i think this is a bad c/r bluff for two reasons.

    1. We are mostly folding out worse and getting called by better, maybe she lets go of some Ax but we c/r so small.
    2. TT has almost no equity to improve if you are behind, if you want to have some c/r bluffs i'd pick hands with more equity.

    AP i'd fold river.

  • pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
    edited June 2017
    I get why people don't like the flop x/r. I guess my thought at the time was that I would probably not play AK or AA as a x/c to such a small bet. So if I play flop as a x/c, I get myself into this spot on turns where maybe she bombs it and I have no idea if she's bombing it because I look weak or because she has it. Plus I guess she could be bluffing with a hand like JJ trying to get me off QQ-KK.

    So the point of the x/r was really that I thought I was likely ahead (and would fold out her equity if she had like JQs or whatever), but if I wasn't I could have some fold equity with a turn shove to some random suited aces and possibly AJ, maybe even occasionally AQ (as well as JJ-QQ). And I also figured she might just 3bet ship hands like 88 or AK, so that I'd usually have a bit more FE on turn after a flat rather than just making a big flop x/r.

    However, once the flush came it felt like my line would look pretty FOS and she could have made a flush. So it was hard to continue there.
  • pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
    Anyway, I folded river. Villain showed KcQc for an airball... It's made me second guess the river especially, that maybe I should've just closed my eyes and called given the price/odds.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    a flop should be more of a check because Villain shouldnt have man FDs here right? So we should have more value hands we check back here?
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    Finding it very hard not to dismiss this hand as nothing more than an aberration.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    pocketzeroes said:
    I guess my thought at the time was that I would probably not play AK or AA as a x/c to such a small bet.

    Why? Just check/raise turn or call down if you think she will bomb it. She can't make a "showdown" type bet on the flop. You'll always get a chance to bomb the river if she checks turn.

    This whole hand is pretty button clicky. I feel like all the issues start from making a nonstandard 4bet without a good reason. If you just randomly 4bet it makes it difficult to figure out where each had fits within your entire range.
  • pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
    AJoff said:

    Why? Just check/raise turn or call down if you think she will bomb it. She can't make a "showdown" type bet on the flop. You'll always get a chance to bomb the river if she checks turn.

    This whole hand is pretty button clicky. I feel like all the issues start from making a nonstandard 4bet without a good reason. If you just randomly 4bet it makes it difficult to figure out where each had fits within your entire range.
    It's not like I think she's just always going to bomb the turn after her tiny flop. I mean, certainly she might start checking back things like weak aces and I guess sometimes other stuff that has maybe picked up some equity like gutshots or a big turned pair below the ace or whatever.

    I don't know what she's going to do with her bets really. She does a lot of weird things with her bet-sizings... Like if I call flop, she might bomb turn, or she might even bet smaller on the turn and I'd have no idea if she's doing it to induce or as a pot-controllish play with top pair or as an under-bluff...
  • pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
    Rocketman74 said:
    Finding it very hard not to dismiss this hand as nothing more than an aberration.
    Yep, I definitely get that. It was a very strange hand for me. Especially because it was obviously a spot where both she and I thought the other was likely FOS.
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