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2/5 NLHE TPTK + Nut Flush Draw on a paired board on the turn - Did I play this hand too fast?

2/5 NLHE ($500 max) at Borgata during the Summer Open. My table is very high action, and I have a very good image - have won every hand I've been in at showdown, with mostly strong starting holdings. I do think I made a couple mistakes along the way in this pot, so I wanted to see if you guys could find a more optimal way to play this.

Hero (BB) ~$1700 stack - late 20s, white, very good TAG image.
V1 (UTG +1) ~$2400 stack - middle aged white guy, astonishing calling station. Has been calling very very wide preflop and continuing with ANY piece of the flop. Has acquired his stack mostly by virtue of making bizarre two pairs after calling large bets with inferior holdings. V1 has also racked his chips and is about to leave.
V2 (SB) ~$1000 stack - middle aged white guy, very aware, but on obvious tilt because he's been on the ass end of V1's suckouts several times. Playing very spewy at this stage.

3 limpers. V2 raises to $40 - a slightly large sizing relative to the table, but not absolutely out of line. Hero calls with A J. I considered 3-bet bluffing here, but wanted to keep V1 in the hand. Based on previous play, he was very likely to call with virtually any two once two people were in. V1 calls, another limper calls.

Flop ($165): J 4 4
V2 c-bets $80.
Hero raises $215
V1 cold calls $215
Limp/caller folds,
V2 folds

In hindsight, I don't think I should be raising here. Raising next to act in this spot probably blows a lot of people off J10/QJ/KJ and the board isn't draw heavy. I believe V1 could still be calling with J10/QJ/KJ and maybe even lesser jacks based on previous play.

Turn ($675): 10
Hero bets $325
V1 tanks for a minute and moves in. He has me covered. I have approximately $1120 left.

I ended up tanking for about 3 minutes and folding. At $1120 into $2435, I'd need 31% equity to call. I think at that point, his cold call on the flop + ship on the turn range has my hand crushed. The question I have is this:

Did I play this hand too fast? Should I have simply flatted on the flop, OR should I have at the very least, once I raised the flop and got cold called, looked to realize my additional nut FD equity by check/calling a bet on the turn, rather than leading and inviting a 4 to ship over me? Granted, the size of the bet would have to provide value as I could (unlikely, but could) be drawing stone cold dead if he has the last two Jacks?


  • Jesse_The_Suit Posts: 493SubscriberProfessional
    Yeah, I agree with you that the raise was probably a mistake. I would be hesitant, as a general matter, to raise top pair top kicker on a paired board. It depends on your villain of course, but I think you possibly put yourself in a position where he folds out his weaker Js and maybe only 4s continue on, in this case.

    I know this guy is a station, but his cold call of your raise on the flop is really scary, as he isn't even closing the action. Given how trappy most stations play, I'd be real worried that he had a 4. I think once you pick up the draw it makes more sense to check, since you have a made hand with a redraw. Given that the board is paired you could be drawing to a dead draw, but I still like a check call line. If you had AJ with no draw I'd just bet fold the turn and the river. I think when he jams on you he has a non-full 4 like 90 percent of the time. If he had JJ, TTs or J4 I bet he slow plays a lot.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Preflop: I think you played it fine. I'm confused by your line "I considered 3-bet bluffing here". What better hands are you getting to fold by 3 betting here? I guess you could get smaller pocket pairs to fold IF he is raising them in the SB but it's discounted a bit. Also, you are in position, your hand has good equity vs his range if he does have PPs, and you're not getting him to fold AK or probably AQ. It's not like he opened raised the button and even then, I might just call in the blind. so, i like the call.

    Flop: I don't see a reason to raise here. your raise here kinda ruined the rest of the hand.
    Turn: As played, you are in a WAWB spot unless he specifically has JT in which case it's kinda close. As played, considering the stack sizes, I like a check-call line. Unfortuantely, you bloated the pot on the flop so there's a good chance he might shove the turn with a scary turn card if he has a 4 forcing you to fold.
    As played, fold. You're not getting the price to call to hit your flush or jack.

    Keep in mind that when playing with someone who tends to play hands in certain manners, such as calling too much, it's a huge red flag when they change gears. In this case, shoving. If he had a jack or a draw, he's calling, not shoving.

    If a maniac aggressive player where to just call on the turn, I'd be really worried he had a monster like TT. If a maniac shoved, I might call thinking he is overplayed a jack.
  • sixonflop Posts: 12Subscriber
    Yeah after I left the table I thought about the hand more and realized my bloating the pot on the flop was a major mistake. C/C on the turn might have made sense for value because he was not folding a 4 if the flush came in. Appreciate the input
  • nopair Posts: 350Subscriber
    You are looking at this wrong. We are sure on the turn that we don't have the best hand. You found that out via the betting that occurred. If you played it differently, you might not have known you were dead. You might have ended up losing more. You might even have ended up with the winner when it comes J on the river.

    Lots of different stuff could have happened with different betting actions, but you are looking at your betting completely from a results oriented perspective.

    If your turn bet would have won you the pot, would you be asking here about bloating the pot?
    What about if you won the pot on the flop?
    What about if you scared a guy with 54 to call you on the turn, and you rivered the 2♣ or a Jack?

    Do not draw a conclusion that your action was wrong simply because a guy who hadn't acted yet appears to have accidentally lucked into a big hand.
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