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*** 2/5 QQ vs lagtard and a huge donk facing 3bet

ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber
2/5 1K cap

So this was weird spot and I wonder what people think about it.
V1 is a lagtard maniac. He 3bets way way too often and very very light.
Bluff frequency is SUPER high.
V2 is the biggest spot at the table, mega lose pre and is a pretty big station post.

HERO has ~1300
V1 covers
V2 ~800-1000

V2 donk is BB, EPs fold and HERO has QQ in like MP raises to 25 folded to lagtard V1 in LP he 3 bets to 80, folded to V2 in BB and he cold calls 80.

We can obviously flat or 4bet (sizing?)
What do you think is the best way to play the rest of the hand and why?



  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    Depends on what you want to accomplish. You have relative position.

    For example at times you want to keep the station in the hand and because the maniac is probably going to bet anyways you get to see what he does. While you are 1300 deep the huge 3b drops the SPRs to where it is easy to get it in. Regardless of stack sizes.

    I would really examine the maniac and station tendencies in this spot to make a decision. So let's say the station doesn't take a shit without 2 pair or better. He never raises you or the other player unless you are beat and the maniac will 3b any two and triple barrel most of the time with complete air. In this case maybe you might want to just call and let both of them hang themselves.

    Or let's say the station gives up a lot on the flop without a draw or TP and is tricky with big hands slowplaying them or he is capable of just flatting AA in this spot. The maniac is controlled in his betting and is accidentally balanced. Well now you are stuck in a more difficult spot between the two players. You might lean in 3 betting.

    So a lot depends. The standard play in a vacuum is to 3b so you can build a pot for your big hand. But if you do you lose relative position in a bloated pot.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber
    we thinking about 4betting vs flatting....

    That's the tricky part, the lagtard is a maniac but I'm pretty sure he knows that the donk is a station too, so he's not totally clueless, but he is very likely to rep any scare card especially if you check to him.

    You're also right - I've seen donk flat HUGE PP pre before.
    Basically he never ever folds ANY PP in this spot and prob calls any "pretty hand", most connected unsuited hands and a lot of suited crap too!
    Post he's a pretty typical lose/passive station.
    Will never fold TP, will chase anything and will pay off river too with weak TP or sometimes frustrated PP (like say 99 or TT) that's now underpair to the board.

    QQ are a bit vulnerable to 2 OC though...
  • nted22 Posts: 61Subscriber
    This is always a 4bet with the given descriptions. First, your MILES ahead of both ranges, and pretty deep. Your OOP. Your letting them both realize their equity. Your hand is still vulnerable. If this were a 100 bb effective spot and you had AA or even KK....i think you could get creative with a flat. This is not the spot for it however. Not to mention that given these player types...your 4 bet is going to get called in one or both spots a large % of the time. I 4bet a lil large here, around 320...since i dont expect lagtard to fold much, and i can see station calling both if lagtard folds or calls. When you flat here with a huge range advantage OOP, your just letting them freeroll on your 260 bb stack with weaker holdings. You have to get value, protect your hand, and perhaps most importantly..build the pot. When we just flat, the pot will be 250, leaving us an spr of 5. If we 4b to 320, get called in only 1 spot...the pot will be 750 ish and much easier to get stacks in. The key here is realizing how far ahead you are range wise over both villians.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber
    edited July 2017
    I agree, I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of both of them for sure.

    The tricky part is that if I were HU vs lagtard I would always flat (even OOP) 'cause I actually expect him to have a lot total garbage.
    4bets are super rare in this game, so he's most likely to fold. On other hand, he just can't help himself when ppl show weakness.
    I would probably just x/call him down on almost any runout...

    vs donk I would always 4bet. Maybe not vs his own 3bet - cause he never 3bets unless he has super premium, but you get my drift...I want to get value from his calling mistakes.

  • nted22 Posts: 61Subscriber
    Letting lagtards realize their equity in position with big stacks is a recipe for disaster. You need to look at all the negatives that go into flatting here, and how they weigh out vs the positives. This is a good example of incorrectly deviating far from optimal play to exploit a certain player tendency. There are ways to capitalize on his aggression while still getting in a 4 bet.

    I agree that you can flat a higher % if this were a heads up situation, but a 4 bet to say 250-300 is still higher EV IMO. I think your overestimating how often villian is going to fold here. Live Lagtard fish don't 3bet and fold to normal size 4bets pre, especially when deep. Your 4bet will still get called a huge % of the time...and you can exploit his over aggressive tendencies post flop when the proper conditions are present and *the pot is built*
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Well if third player is a station then you will get a call there too.. I am going to 4 bet.. and 4 bet BIG... if he is truely a station then you get them trapped between themselves with you having way better a range..

    I find the 3! to 80 kinda strange though.. It's actually pretty small. Is this his typical size? Do you know him well that this might indicate a tighter range? ie is this weak or is this stronger?

    I look for stuff like that as you know and might change my decision based on that.. but given no other information I think its too important to 4 bet.. make it something like $350-$400 and of course be ready to call off if maniac ships..
  • nted22 Posts: 61Subscriber
    Solid point there hammah. I would say we would need a large sample of his 3b sizings tho to make us deviate from such a clear 4 bet. Especially when you factor in that most live rec players dont really know how to size most bets properly, which typically is towards their bets being too small...especially with 3bets. If we had something like 10-15 3bet data points and noticed a clear sizing difference in AA/KK vs rest of his range. But i think this is a pretty rare occasion....and if we're going to opt to just flat and not 4 bet here...we need to be very very sure.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    4 bet to 300. I would probably make an exploitative fold to a 5 bet shove from the lagtard. But with right reads you can even call it off against a 5 bet.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber
    So what ended up happening was - after some deliberation I decided to 4bet to 280.
    I figured lagtard has garbage and he's folding anyway, but I didn't want to make it too large 'cause I wanted to keep the donk in.

    lagtard thought about it for some time and folded and then the donk folded with disappointment and told the lagtard - "If you you called, I woulda called also"

    This is pretty common occurrence actually. Donks love multiway pots and hate HU pots.
    I wonder what's their mentality there?
    Is that because of better pot odds they are getting on a call and I guess more $$$ in total pot to win later if they hit w/e it is they are hoping to hit :???: .....or...do they actually understand that they are more protected from bluffs by the multiway nature of pots?...

    Anyway, obviously not the result I was hoping for, but I thought it was an interesting spot...
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