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Passively Played Aces - Can we call this river check-shove?

8BitJoe Posts: 13Subscriber
edited August 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$5/10 at the Wynn/Encore in LV, NV. $3500 effective. As,Ac on Button. Memory's not perfect as this was about 2 1/2 weeks ago, but here goes:

Early position raises to 40, V in MP1 (looks like young pro, not much info otherwise) 3-bets to $140. Pretty standard 3-bet, happening a lot at the table, even light as we're super deep. Folds to me.

I wake up with A,A on Button and 4-bet to $440 - (pot sized would have been 495). Folds around to V. V Calls.

$935 flop: K 2 J

V checks, I bet $450, V calls.

$1835 Turn: 2
Board: K 2 J 2

V checks, I check back for pot control + not super concerned about opp having many flush or straight draws with my having 2 Aces for straight blockers and As blocking a ton of flush draws. Kind of way ahead/way behind. I can save a bet or two versus boats and I also want to get another bet out of AK, KQ suited or QQ.

$1835 River: 8
Board: K 2 J 2 8 for a completed flush and no straights.

V checks, I bet $900, V thinks a bit and shoves for $1710 more. $1710 to call to win $5345 for 3.13 to 1

Hero: :???: ???

He's clearly repping boats and flushes, the latter of which I block a ton of combos.

Listening to Bart's analysis over the past few months + seeing it in my live results, in 1/2 - 2/5 games basically nobody check-raise river bluffs. And in my low double-digit # of hours at 5/10 games in primarily local pro line-ups, I haven't seen a check-raise river bluff show down once except for the 1 time when I tried it into top set and lost a buy-in.

Based on this & needing to be good 1 out of 4.13 times, I folded. However, later in the night I couldn't stopping thinking that with how passively I played the hand, maybe I have to call off the river as the whole point of checking back the turn was to get him to pay me off with AK, KQ, or QQ. AK he could actually be raising for value, but I block a bunch. KQ, QQ, maybe TT, and maybe even QJ or JT he could be turning into a bluff. And he could obviously have KK or JJ here as well, thinking I can't call with 2 pair, but he can check and get me to value bet or bluff with worse, then raise and hope I can't fold 2 pair with pot odds.

-Joe

Comments

  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    edited August 2017
    Can't find many bluffs in his range based on run out, I mean I guess he can x/stuff KJs because he blocks the obvious boats and your hand should/is probably face up to him unless you have a wider range than he expects.
    I might have checked back the flop and would have tried to get value on later streets 1 or 2 I'm not sure because it'll depend on V tendencies--> paying of light/capable of bluff raising-->without many hours of playing vs him AP I think I can find a fold especially having Axs in your hand
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    I've been waiting to see more comments on this hand. I didn't want to comment because I don't play 5-10 and may not be fully aware of the some of the standard dynamics that go on at this level. That said, here's my 2 cents:

    You say Villain appears to be a young pro. If so, can we assume he is well aware of your hand ranges? If so, I think your 4 bet pre looks pretty face up as AK+(maybe QQ, depending on your image)

    On the river, I think flushes are pretty rare. Your hand and the board block pretty much everything other than T9spades. (unless you think V can have 76spades here?)

    I think V's range is very polarized here as very nutted 3 combos KK and 3 combos JJ or air. Any Kx or QQ hand would call or fold here (I can't see these hands turned into bluffs) Obviously spades can no longer be part of his bluff range as they come in are blocked anyhow. We block a lot of other Ax hands. That leaves mostly suited broadway hands like QJs or JTs for bluffs.

    You need 24% Equity to call profitably. I think it's very close. I base my decision on:

    1) If you have an image as any bit of a nit, I would call as a pro type V may look to exploit this.

    2) If you don't think V has many bluffs here ( The river c/r does look strong) I would fold.

    I'd like to see what some of the regs at 5-10 have to say.



  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    $900 is a pretty significant river bet, even at half pot. It's possible for you to have flushes, slow played KK, and hands like AA or AK that may never be folding. Therefore, I have to give him credit, even though the line is odd. I mean occasionally he's turning QQ with the Q of spades into a bluff, or he has hand like QT or T9 that he chose to 3bet and call a 4bet with, but that's rare. I think you made a fine lay down.
  • pray4blank Posts: 135Subscriber
    I tried to think what hands I would expect to see, and for a moment I thought almost 0. Then I thought if he's not super good with ranges, he could just be seeing your action as bet, check, bet as "I bet my flush draw. I'm checking back for a free card. I got my flush". If he's interpreting your flop and turn play this way, then I can see KK and JJ played as a CRAI on the river for value vs this flush he thinks you have.
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