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Awkward 1/3 spot from BB with JJ in a bloated pot

Sonny Posts: 370Subscriber
edited September 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
MP2 opens to $12 with ~$500 behind
Button calls with ~$135 behind
Hero raises to $50 from the BB with J J with $290 left behind
MP2 calls $50
Button calls $50
Pot ~$150

Flop
10 9 8

Hero leads for $100
MP2 calls
Button goes all in for $135
Hero calls $35 since the betting isn't opened back up
MP2 calls $35
Pot ~$555

Turn
2

So we still have an over pair plus an open ended straight draw. The button is already all in, so come what may with that. The board is super wet. How do we play the hand from here on out? Its either shove or check call considering the price right? Thoughts on earlier streets?
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Comments

  • psi1122 Posts: 130Subscriber
    edited September 2017
    I think I might 3-bet bigger pre considering that we would be OOP against two opponents, something more like 60-65. But I think 50 is fine. We are 3-bet getting it in right?


    I think we just shove turn, We have what 160 behind in a pot of 555. We're never folding, and I hate to give villain a free chance to hit a flush or an overcard.
  • Sonny Posts: 370Subscriber
    Funny you mention it... My normal 3 bet equation when OOP is actually 4x+1 for each aditional caller which gives us exactly $60. At this table though it just seemed much to large to get value from hands that we're beating. On the rare ocasion players were 3 betting it was anywhere from 25-40. Now I understand that just because others are playing incorrectly doesn't mean I should, but I wanted to get value for my hand.
  • FriendlyFish Posts: 83Member
    Sonny said:
    Funny you mention it... My normal 3 bet equation when OOP is actually 4x+1 for each aditional caller which gives us exactly $60. At this table though it just seemed much to large to get value from hands that we're beating. On the rare ocasion players were 3 betting it was anywhere from 25-40. Now I understand that just because others are playing incorrectly doesn't mean I should, but I wanted to get value for my hand.
    Taking it down pre with JJ is a win too as many overcards can come and put you in a tough spot being OOP. Especially 3 way

  • Sonny Posts: 370Subscriber
    edited September 2017
    FriendlyFish said:
    Sonny said:
    Funny you mention it... My normal 3 bet equation when OOP is actually 4x+1 for each aditional caller which gives us exactly $60. At this table though it just seemed much to large to get value from hands that we're beating. On the rare ocasion players were 3 betting it was anywhere from 25-40. Now I understand that just because others are playing incorrectly doesn't mean I should, but I wanted to get value for my hand.
    Taking it down pre with JJ is a win too as many overcards can come and put you in a tough spot being OOP. Especially 3 way

    I very respectfully disagree. Whether its JJ, 1010, AQ, whatever, we want to get value out of all of our hands that beat our opponents. We want to get called by inferior hands. Pre-flop, we are only loosing to 3 very specific hands. Everytime you get money into the pot as a favorite you are making a +EV play and over the long run these situations will make money. Sure sometimes with JJ overcards will come on the flop, but at that point you have to just trust your ability to play post flop and make reads.

    I used to be of the same mindset but Wendy the Hammah explained this to me in a post a while ago, and now I see the merit in always trying to get more value.
  • FriendlyFish Posts: 83Member
    Sonny said:
    FriendlyFish said:
    Sonny said:
    Funny you mention it... My normal 3 bet equation when OOP is actually 4x+1 for each aditional caller which gives us exactly $60. At this table though it just seemed much to large to get value from hands that we're beating. On the rare ocasion players were 3 betting it was anywhere from 25-40. Now I understand that just because others are playing incorrectly doesn't mean I should, but I wanted to get value for my hand.
    Taking it down pre with JJ is a win too as many overcards can come and put you in a tough spot being OOP. Especially 3 way

    I very respectfully disagree. Whether its JJ, 1010, AQ, whatever, we want to get value out of all of our hands that beat our opponents. We want to get called by inferior hands. Pre-flop, we are only loosing to 3 very specific hands. Everytime you get money into the pot as a favorite you are making a +EV play and over the long run these situations will make money. Sure sometimes with JJ overcards will come on the flop, but at that point you have to just trust your ability to play post flop and make reads.

    I used to be of the same mindset but Wendy the Hammah explained this to me in a post a while ago, and now I see the merit in always trying to get more value.
    I agree with the point you're making. But making it bigger also accomplishes this even more when we get called. And knocks if we can knock out KQ AQ type of hands that have ~ 50% it is a win also. Also the larger sizing makes it so when we do 3bet light or with AA KK we get more too i think
  • tanks_a_lottanks_a_lot Posts: 41Member
    Often times when there is a short stack in a multi way pot and I have a hand I'm willing to go with, I'll bet smaller so when the short stack jams it reopens the action. So in this hand, when you bet 100 and the the action goes call - shove, your only option is to call and of course MP is never folding. Now let's say you bet 75 OTF and MP calls. If the BTN jams for 135 it reopens the action so you can reshove and put MP in a tough spot.

    As played shove turn.
  • MastaC707 Posts: 95Subscriber
    Ship turn. $315 into $555. Not much else you can do.

    Masta--
  • Sonny Posts: 370Subscriber
    edited September 2017
    Yeah I pretty much agree that shipping turn is the only real option. We're getting a great price, and even if the ship adds even 5% fold equity to the hand that makes the play even more profitable.

    I was mostly wondering what others might have thought about my pre-flop and flop play. I can definately see merit in raising slightly more pre since I'm OOP.

    Ultimately I did ship it in on the turn. After the inatial raiser hems and haws he says that he just has to call and shows up with 8× 10×...
    The caller in the middle had A 10.

    So as it was, on the flop we have more equity than the two pair, but we need to improve. And after running the numbers on PokerCruncher on what I thought their ranges are in the spot, I'm a giant favorite. We did not improve regretfully. I guess it's the nit in me but I'm not a giant fan of getting in a lot of money without being in the lead as far as the actual hand strength is concerned. I've tried to think of a different way to play it but I guess its just a cooler. The flop does hit their range for sets pretty hard, but if I check from up front I'm calling off anyway.

    This hand, and many hands prior have definitely made me adjust my thought patterns concerning lower limit games. All 1/2, 1/3, and the 2/5 $500 cap game at Bellagio. Everyone is scarred to put money in the pot. Its not going to stop me from betting for value. It just strikes me as odd that if I nailed the two pair on the flop against a large pre flop raise, I would raise the flop almost 100% of the time for value and protection. Most of the players here it seems are super passive and afarid to raise, more than I even thought. So its kinda hard to put them on a hand. I don't think that they're necessarly slow playing their hands either, but their just scarred of putting money in the pot unless they have the absolute nuts.

  • psi1122 Posts: 130Subscriber
    I think you played the hand perfectly fine. I think raising bigger is also fine, but I don't think your raise size is bad.

    Sorry that you lost. If he's showing up with T8o. he's showing up with a lot of other junk in their ranges that you're beating.


  • Sonny Posts: 370Subscriber
    Its just a hand I'm always going to loose unless I get there.
    I think the more interesting thing that is being releaved to me is that I don't necessarly think that he's showing up at the river with much that I'm beating. I think after the call of the initial $100 (a very large bet at 1/3), every bet I put in after that is no longer a value bet and is more of naming my price on the draw.
    I feel like the idea of players at 1/2 blasting off because they're scarred of getting drawn out on is fading away, and that they're just calling down a lot more because they just don't want to play for stacks. I also think at the lower limits players aren't chasing draws as much as they used to either, for the same reason.
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