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$5/$10 - Turn 2P OOP - is river too thin?

Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
edited September 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$5/$10 - 10 Handed

Table has been open for about an hour. Nobody has been getting too out of line to this point.

The original raiser has been playing here a lot for the last couple of weeks (as he is in town visiting relatives.) He's decent, a little loose pre and a little sticky post.

The BTN has been around for years. He's a pit player and a spot BUT not as bad as he use to be. He's still a POW and is LP pre BUT he is not the VIP he once was. For the most part he's just gotten much tighter (but he's still a losing player.)

Hero is known by both players as a winner that is fairly aggressive.

---

$5/$10 - 10 Handed

CO raises to $40, Villain calls OTB, dead small, Hero calls in the BB w/A T

could 3b (and often would) but I close the action and I defend my BB more than most (so I need some decent hands in my calling range.)

Flop: A J 4

$120 (3 Players) Hero checks, CO checks, Villain bets $80, Hero calls, CO folds

standard?

Turn: T

$280 (2 Players) Hero checks, Villain bets $170, Hero raises to $470, Villain calls (w/$850 behind)

Villain lets out a noticeable grown when I x-r. He tanks for awhile and calls.

River: 6

$1,220 (2 Players) Hero goes AI ($850 to call)

too optimistic? b/f? c/f? c/c? c/evaluate? Villain is still a station (just not the station he once was.) I'm not sure he calls here with one pair anymore... Comments on all decisions very welcome.
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Comments

  • psi1122 Posts: 130Subscriber
    For what's it's worth, usually the noticeable grown is a ~nut-ish hand, aka weak means strong and strong means weak.


    However, if you assume that villain isn't acting, and ignoring the tell at all points. I like your shove if you believe villain is POW and you have an aggressive image. Usually, the club is bad because it scares alot of his made hands, (ax, worse two pairs on the river).I don't think you have that many bluffs that missed river. Like I think you're mostly likely bluff combos on the turn are QXcc, and KXcc. However, if you believe he is still a pow, I think there are loosely still enough worse combos he'll call with on the turn. I'm only really worried about Qxcc or some Kxcc, that sigh called the turn, but that doesn't seem like a huge concern, and I don't think there are that many combos of those in comparison to like A6, JT, worse ax, A4, maybe a J4s, or a J6s weird played.

    So yeah, I think your shove is probably fine, against player who doesn't like to fold.




  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    psi1122 said:
    For what's it's worth, usually the noticeable grown is a ~nut-ish hand, aka weak means strong and strong means weak.
    it can be but this seemed very genuine... he didn't like the x-r imo

  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    I would bet smaller on the river if you don't think he calls one pair hands and if more weighted to a one pair hand. Your CR turn is super strong, 2 pairs or sets and possibly the KQ♣️. My only concern is with a shove on the river your possibly only getting called by hands that beat you.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    1. Did you think of leading turn? This player type could conceivable check back turn too often and we miss Dat dere valuuu

    2. Not that worried about a flush since Ac is on board. Most likely flush is jxcc and that and may not bet turn.

    3. This is our worst value hand that plays this way I would assume. We can have kq, 44, aj if those didn't raise flop. I don't think raising turn with a4 is good. As played shove is thin and hard to find bluffs here but this v probably doesn't think about the game like this so you may get called by aq anyway.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    edited September 2017
    iamallin said:
    1. Did you think of leading turn? This player type could conceivable check back turn too often and we miss Dat dere valuuu
    I did consider this and in hindsight, I think it is a better line.

    Spoiler:
    Results: Villain really starts to grown and says, "Really? KQ? KQ of clubs?" It was at this moment I knew I was fugged. "Well... I can't fold."

    TT
  • psi1122 Posts: 130Subscriber
    edited September 2017
    FWIw, not trying to be an a** here, I'm not so sure if we can consider villain a stationy player if he's sigh-calling with a set of tens. A station would probably call a lot quicker with a set imo.
  • maphacks Posts: 1,999Subscriber
    Flop I don't see another option than xc.

    Turn is interesting and I am not sure what to do against a very good opponent.
    Against this particular villain it seems best to lead. We prevent checkbacks or bet/folds from Ax. Villain will also have hands such as KT, QT and few KJ,QJ,JT. Most of those hands are very likely to checkback but call if you lead.

    If we decide to check, raising seems almost like an overplay since we are sometimes behind and have a good amount of foldequity vs weaker hands even vs a loose player. if we get called, it's not even a fistpump valuebet on a river blank IMO.

    I prefer leading over xc over xr.

    AP, on the river I don't think it matters too much. XF or allin. His sigh should be a sign of stones.

    One thing to note: against a good player I am not sure about a turn lead since it's pretty hard to come up with enough hands that you could turn into a bluff. Maybe all KJ or QJ and maybe some Tx gutshot type hands?
    However we want some strong hands in our checking range as well. Seems difficult to me..
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    psi1122 said:
    FWIw, not trying to be an a** here....
    Good thing I used a spoiler...

    He said that I've taken so much money from him (in the past) that he was sure that I was "doing it again" lol. To be fair, I did preface that he was getting tighter (not better.) It's definitely a trend these days... bad players (still) losing just at a slower pace.
  • jwit Posts: 35Member
    Most players would dump AK on the turn reraise to 470 that clearly commits you. When he calls, there is a huge chance you are way behind. As said previously, the groan is key. No chance he does this without a made hand. Regardless, the bet on the river was ill advised. No hand weaker than yours would call that river bet, so you are only getting called by better hands

    Your call on the flop is pretty standard but with a board like that and OOP, you might as well turn your cards over. What else would you be calling with?
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    jwit said:
    Your call on the flop is pretty standard but with a board like that and OOP, you might as well turn your cards over. What else would you be calling with?
    Ummmm... He's not really a thinking player. That said, I could have JJ, 44, AJ, A4, J4s or a bunch of Broadway gutshots or pairs with backdoors. Not saying 'I' play these hands that way but to say I'm "face-up" might be overstating it a little bit.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    Preflop and flop calls are fine. Based on his actual holding, I think a turn lead or a call then donk river is best against this player in the future. He bet basically the worst hand to bet on the flop. I agree with some of the above posters who think he shuts down too often to just check/call the rest of the way.

    AP this seems borderline but fine. It's hard for him to have clubs and KQ would probably play the turn differently/not give off that live tell.
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