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2-5 Multi Street Bluff with Air

deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 205Subscriber
edited October 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Crazy 2-5nl game at Foxwoods $1000 ef. 8 handed. Standard open is $25-$35 with most hands going to showdown for huge pots.

Villain is mid 30's Indian or Pakistani in seat 9 who plays around 60% of hands. He limps weak hands and open raises all big pairs and Broadways to $35, he calls nearly all pre-flop raises with anything pretty. In 3 hours I don't think I've gotten through him with a raise. That's fine as he usually folds to a CBet when he misses the flop. I'm not sure how he sees me. I was card dead for a long while before going on a run and building my stack up to about $1k.

In this hand he opens to $35 UTG as usual and I decide to call OTB with K J (This may sound a little loose but if you don't play this hand at this table you don't play at all). The SB comes along for the ride and the BB folds.

[$120] Flop comes Q 5 6
SB checks as does Villain.

I'm assuming that if he has a Queen or an over pair he's going to bet here most of the time, especially with both straight and flush draws possible. I don't have much but he just seems weak and both my cards might be good for a pair on the Turn or River. With that and some backdoor potential I decide to fire $60 and see what happens (sizing?).
The SB folds and the Villain calls.

[$240] Turn is the 3
Now Villain fires $100.

How strange. What could possibly prompt this, a set? Does he open to $35 with 33? 24 for a Str8 is out of the question. Could he have slow played a flopped set? This so fucking weird. The only thing that makes sense to me is something A K where he missed the flop and is now desperate to salvage his chance of winning the pot with a premium hand. With my backdoor str8 possibilities gone just calling seems like a waste of money. My choice seems to be to fold or raise. I've got about $900 behind, Villain has me slightly covered.

Call?/Fold?/Raise?

Spoiler:

I raise to $300. Villain thinks for about a minute and calls.

[$840] The River is the 7
Villain checks.
???


Spoiler:

I shove for $600. The Villain tanks for 3 or 4 minutes and finally calls with A A (not positive about the suits)

This really surprised me. I never would have put him on anything better than Jacks or AKs. I just assumed that anything better would have at least bet the flop. That's what killed me. I think I played this well but am eager to hear other opinions on this. I don't think my call with KJs was wrong and I certainly didn't plan on stacking off $1000 on a bluff when I did but that's the danger and excitement of this game, you're stack is always in play and never now how things might unfold. That said I don't like to just burn money and these huge multi-street bluffs are the bane of my existence. I often wonder if just waiting for value might be the better approach but I don't think I could ever be that passive.


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Comments

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    I mean I'm not sure what you are rep in on turn that doesn't bet flop, 33 maybe 53?

    If you had a draw that completed it would be 74 or 42 which is unlikely.

    Feel like the turn doesn't help your range out at all to a rec. I get to players who hand read, we know we don't always bet made hands on every flop but to rec players I don't if they would think like that.

    We should have started betting from flop. Especially since Villain checks here. Maybe we can fire 2 streets and get him of JJ or AK here.

    River we have to shove if we raise turn IMO.

    But fwiw I give bad advice here haha.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,287Subscriber
    Whenever I see a player take this line this is a strong hand that is trying to get value. AND they aren't folding because they played their hand fancy and you don't know they did. Thus.... I gotta call he doesn't know I have XX.

    It is similar to XC, XC, Bet medium/large river

    So let's say for whatever reason this guy XC then bet the turn. Do you think this is complete air? Maybe he is loose and XC 64s or 77. Now he picks up a draw and block bets. Is he folding to a raise? No.

    I just give up in these spots because I haven't put any money in of any significance.
  • sanox Posts: 82Subscriber
    Here , I guess you only rep 3 hands : 55, 66 and A4hh, so 7 combos.
    As you have very few hands in your value range , you should have one or two combos max of bluff.

    In a vacuum , KJs is a good hand to bluff. You block KQ and QJ and you don't block hearts. But if you bluff all your KJs and other similar hands, you would be overbluffing.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    I don't think KJss is a good hand to bluff here given action at all.
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 205Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    neverlearn2 said:
    I mean I'm not sure what you are rep in on turn that doesn't bet flop, 33 maybe 53?

    If you had a draw that completed it would be 74 or 42 which is unlikely.

    Feel like the turn doesn't help your range out at all to a rec. I get to players who hand read, we know we don't always bet made hands on every flop but to rec players I don't if they would think like that.

    We should have started betting from flop. Especially since Villain checks here. Maybe we can fire 2 streets and get him of JJ or AK here.

    River we have to shove if we raise turn IMO.

    But fwiw I give bad advice here haha.

    But I did bet the flop. $60. I bet all three streets.

    BTW, I actually like your posts.
    Fuzzypup said:
    Whenever I see a player take this line this is a strong hand that is trying to get value. AND they aren't folding because they played their hand fancy and you don't know they did. Thus.... I gotta call he doesn't know I have XX.

    It is similar to XC, XC, Bet medium/large river

    So let's say for whatever reason this guy XC then bet the turn. Do you think this is complete air? Maybe he is loose and XC 64s or 77. Now he picks up a draw and block bets. Is he folding to a raise? No.

    I just give up in these spots because I haven't put any money in of any significance.
    No, I knew he had something but his entire line just screamed weakness to me and the Turn bet kinda seemed a little desperate. I interpreted it the same way I do a donk bet. It seemed like he was just trying to slow me down. I actually think I was right too based on the 4 minute tank call on the river. If he loved his hand he would have gotten it in on the turn and I would have folded of course.
    sanox said:
    Here , I guess you only rep 3 hands : 55, 66 and A4hh, so 7 combos.
    As you have very few hands in your value range , you should have one or two combos max of bluff.

    In a vacuum , KJs is a good hand to bluff. You block KQ and QJ and you don't block hearts. But if you bluff all your KJs and other similar hands, you would be overbluffing.
    So why can't I have AQ, KQ, QJ? Even QQ might just call a UTG. I know he had AA but that's irrelevant, his line seemed like AK or maybe Jacks. I know that sounds a little too specific but what raises to $35 pre-flop and doesn't CBet a Queen high flop or get it in on the turn. I'm not criticizing his call with AA, I can see him thinking that he underpalyed his hand and that I might just have a Queen. My question is really whether, as played, I should have pushed this so hard on the Turn and just given up on the River.

    Thanks for your replies, sorry I didn't get back sooner. Been working late. With that and the news about the Vegas shooting I just didn't have the desire or energy to deal with it last night.
  • sanox Posts: 82Subscriber
    So why can't I have AQ, KQ, QJ? Even QQ might just call a UTG
    Not really sure you would raise turn with these hands (except QQ). If you do, fair enough, but in that case your calling range on the turn would be way too weak.
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 205Subscriber
    sanox said:
    So why can't I have AQ, KQ, QJ? Even QQ might just call a UTG
    Not really sure you would raise turn with these hands (except QQ). If you do, fair enough, but in that case your calling range on the turn would be way too weak.
    Actually yes, for sure with AQ-JQ with the diamonds but what's important is if he thinks I would. I might slow down a bit on the river with KQ, JQ. So to him I should look like AQ, QQ a flopped set or air. I don't believe I had been caught with my hand in the cookie jar while he was at the table but I'm sure he didn't see me as a nit so that probably played a part in his decision.

    If I were in his shoes I probably would have called with AA-QQ and maybe AQ, but I would never have taken the line he did postflop. I will sometimes slow play a flopped TPTK Ace or King but nothing as low as a Queen.

  • ClockClock Posts: 1,092Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    Pre
    deadinaditch said:


    In this hand he opens to $35 UTG as usual and I decide to call OTB with K J (This may sound a little loose but if you don't play this hand at this table you don't play at all).

    This is not a sound logic at all.

    You just said:
    Villain is mid 30's Indian or Pakistani in seat 9 who plays around 60% of hands. He limps weak hands and open raises all big pairs and Broadways to $35
    So yes, you can play KJs (I would even play KJo vs this Villain), but not after he opens to 35. Wait for him to limp and aggressively ISO raise him in position.
    You just defined his opening range and you're WAY behind it.
    KJs on button is close, but I would consider folding vs described villain opening to such a large sizing.

    Flop
    As far as rest of the hand, I would like your play on flop if you had K J or possibly even K Jo somehow, but with K J you have almost nothing going on, so I would simply check behind and give up.

    Described Villain sounds like a MEGA fish, so I would not look to bluff him almost ever and play almost exclusively for value.
    The only exception would be semi-bluff with good EQ if he showed weakness (such as he did on this flop).

    Turn
    The lead out is weird :???:
    I'm not sure what to put him on, but again vs 60% VPIP fish, I just give up here.
    Who knows, maybe he has a set of QQ or some retarded hand, but we have nothing going on for us, no outs and he's not folding much.
    This is why you want to have backdoors on the flop, so you can hopefully pick up EQ and have options on turn.

    River
    After he calls our turn raise - I'm DONE for sure.
    Wait for a value spot and pound him!!!
  • maphacks Posts: 1,985Subscriber
    without any specific reads I will let this go. given his strange line and weak sizing I wouldn't blame you for raising or shoving but I typically want a little bit more equity.
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 205Subscriber
    deadinaditch said:


    In this hand he opens to $35 UTG as usual and I decide to call OTB with K J (This may sound a little loose but if you don't play this hand at this table you don't play at all).
    Clock said:

    This is not a sound logic at all.
    I only meant that this particular game was very loose and actiony. Typically a large EP raise implies some degree of strength where hands like KJ or even KQ are easily dominated by the top 4% or 5% hands. In such games I happily toss KJ-AJ hands in the muck and wait patiently for better hands or better opportunities. In this game $25-$35 opens were the norm and indicated a much wider opening range, probably more like 10%-15%. With this range, position and skill advantage (yeah, I know, everyone thinks they're the best player at the table) I felt like just folding KJs was just a tad too nitty.
    [/quote]
    Clock said:

    River
    After he calls our turn raise - I'm DONE for sure.
    Wait for a value spot and pound him!!!
    Probably the best overall strategy in these games at this level but his line seemed weak. Don't you think it would be disastrous to check and have him show down A K or a weaker pair that would have folded to a final push?

  • ClockClock Posts: 1,092Subscriber
    deadinaditch said:

    Probably the best overall strategy in these games at this level but his line seemed weak. Don't you think it would be disastrous to check and have him show down A K or a weaker pair that would have folded to a final push?

    I don't see how V can have A K here.
    What, he just bet/call the turn with absolutely nothing (just 2 OC?) That seems a like a huge stretch to me...
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    Fold. You stabbed at the flop and he called, no problem. Now he leads pretty large. Give him the credit and fold.
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 205Subscriber
    Clock said:
    deadinaditch said:

    Probably the best overall strategy in these games at this level but his line seemed weak. Don't you think it would be disastrous to check and have him show down A K or a weaker pair that would have folded to a final push?

    I don't see how V can have A K here.
    What, he just bet/call the turn with absolutely nothing (just 2 OC?) That seems a like a huge stretch to me...
    Maybe not, but at the time it made more sense to me than any made hand which raises big pre from EP but doesn't C-bet the flop. Clearly i was wrong in this instance.
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