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How to handle check min raise with top pair?

z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
Game has not been that good. Pretty tight. H has a pretty solid image and hasn't made many moves. V unknown other than fairly tight. 2 hours and maybe never defended his blinds though he has played some hands. V has $345 to start hand H covers.

Open limper in UTG +1 in 5/5 game 500 cap. Folds to hero with KcJc on button. Raises to $25. Small blind (V) calls. Limper calls

Flop Jh 3h 3d

Checks to H. Bets $50. V raises to $100. Folds to H call $100.
Turn 7s

Board Jh 3h 3d 7s

V goes all in for about $215.

Hero?
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Comments

  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    Fold. Tight player shoves on a paired board, sounds like he can beat your hand. The little tell tell though was the min-raise. Min-raises are a sign of strength. He just wants to get a little more in the pot before he makes his big bet. Even a TAG might play that with AJhh giving you bad odds to draw.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    I also would like more analysis on hands like these in general. Top pair or an overpair facing a check raise or any real aggression after we value bet. What do we do? Generally against unknowns I fold, but I think with this gameplan we might be folding too much.
    I would fold here, but I think by folding we're putting the villain on a super narrow range. If we fold, we're putting him on A3 suited, AJ or the slight possibility of a slow played overpair. I however I think a decent player is always 3 betting overpairs from OOP, and is 3 betting AJ (especially suited) some of the time from a button open. Then on top of that I don't know if a decent player is going to check raise AJ, they may lead or check call. So essentially we're giving him one of the two combos of A3 suited. Thats a really narrow range, but thats all that I can reasonably see played this way given the action.
    In this instance given the action including the min raise it seems like the villain is way ahead, but I find hands like these extremely hard to play and think folding might be too exploitable?

    I'd love to hear more about how to play strong single paired hands against an aggressive action.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,828Subscriber
    Fold. I don't mind the call flop but once he min raised we should be wary.

    Tight players usually raise/bet smaller for value IMO.
  • TastesLikeBurning Posts: 429SubscriberProfessional
    Check/min-raise is a top-pair type hand usually. IME a heart draw would raise bigger OTF or call in a 3-way pot. However, this can be 3x a lot of the time this short even though there are at most 3 combos (two A3 suited and one K3 suited). I probably call here with AJ. However, KJ is a lot closer IMO.

    I fold to this tight player and call versus more aggro/spazzy players. If he's going nuts with a worse J, more power to him. I make a mental note and adjust accordingly.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    How can you fold?
    I think chances of him having a 3 are almost nil based on described profile and flop play.
    The only hand you're realistically losing to is AJ.
    I guess sometimes he might show up with QQ+, but I wouldn't expect him to min-x/raise with an OP vs 2 people on flush board.
    When people slow play big PP pre, they usually BOMB the flop to take it down.

    I think he has a J almost always.
    Sure, sometimes it's gonna be AJ, but what about every other J?
    Even "tight" players will play down to J9s from blinds and I've seen looser as well.
    As played I'm gonna call, but with those stacks I'm actually shoving flop.



    To those saying "fold to tighter player, call vs looser player" - you actually have it backwards.
    Looser players will have more 3x in their range, tighter players do not.
    I'm not saying I would fold to loser player either in this exact spot.
  • TastesLikeBurning Posts: 429SubscriberProfessional
    I think for this type player, JJ/QQ/AJ are in his range. I expect a tight player to try to get to showdown with QJ/JT rather than cram. In deeper games x/min raise or min raise on flops are top pair. In a shorter game, it is going to be a nutted range. I think AJ is the bottom of this villain's range.
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    I would love to see some of the lead pros come in and give some ideas on this. I have called the shove often enough to give my opinion that it's a fold. Every time I do, I come back to "he's not going to shove against me unless he has the goods" Now, if this is some kind of meta game, where V is shoving weak and adding the times you fold/making this a plus EV play, more power to him because he will be playing at much higher stakes soon.

    @@I play online. I see a lot of big hands. I have to adjust to live play which I do not get to do as much as I would like.
    by 1CycleV
  • maphacks Posts: 1,999Subscriber
    in this specific spot I would call. He was tight so far which makes it very unlikely he has 3x. he will sometimes have AJ but also weaker Jx hands which he feels compelled to raise to protect vs flushdraws. not super thrilled but call.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited October 2017
    Tough. Very few value combos beat us (AJ, A3s), but we need QJ & a handful of NFD in their range to make the call profitable. I'm comfortable with either decision on turn tbh. I lean toward a call, but folding on limited info vs someone "tight" might be best.
    by 1CycleV
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,828Subscriber
    Maybe I'm coming from same boat as Jack. But a tight player doesn't play draws this way or JT this way Imo

    But I do see the exploitiveness and weakness here.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,316Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    As played usually a XMR is TP.
    V's only 3 might be A3s if he calls the raise with it. I do see many tight players do so. But you can weigh it down.
    I'd look at his timing tells on how he did his MXR and shove on the turn.

    Pot is $275 and he shoves $215. Would he really do this with AJ after you call? Isn't he concerned with you have QQ+?
    You have no hearts so he could have AKhh, AQhh, KQhh. I've seen people make plays with FDs on a pair board like this trying to rep the pair.

    To me if he snap XMR then snap shoved that really polarizes his range to a big draw or A3s.... This is never JJ or 33. Even if he has QQ or AJ he should take a moment to consider his turn action.

    With a FD or A3s he knows exactly where he is in the hand. I wouldn't be surprised if he thought you have AK because you just called.

    Only other option is that he has AA here and slowplayed it.

    Why are you betting so much? $75 pot and you bet $50 on a dry board. It is incredibly unlikely either have a FD. More likely they have unimproved AK or some small pair. Your bet KOs all those possibilities.
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    So I wanted to fold the flop because I know hes gonna shove turn almost always. But thought folding would be a little ridiculous. I told myself if turn isn't an A Q or a heart that I'm probably gonna have to call off. I didn't think he had weaker J. Figured he has JJ 33 AJ and AKhh AQhh KQhh and maybe some random spazz out bluffs. But 33 and JJ just seem too strong to take this line. 1 combo each. There are 2 combos of A3ss but I don't think he always plays that so i gave him 1 combo. So it was just a strange spot wasn't sure what to do.


    Result: called the turn and V flips over JJ
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    Man, thats a pretty nitty line for him to take with JJ preflop. Then for him to be raising on the flop with him holding all the cards is pretty unusual even for a total ametuer. I don't think anyone here expected JJ...

    One thing I observe in these lower limit games, which are almost always rather passive, is when a guy starts shoveling money in he's at least very polarized, its never a marginal hand. Way more often than not they have a big hand. Then on the rare ocassion he's bluffing, its usually with a hand that can make a very nuttish type hand, like a nut flush draw. Most players at these stakes aren't moving in with AJ...
  • TastesLikeBurning Posts: 429SubscriberProfessional
    There is an older CLP podcast where bart discussed bet sizing in relation to the stack depth. Even tho v is repping a super narrow range, the XMR is telling.

    Bart goes on to explain in a hand with IIRC 50bb effective stacks, the XMR is a sign of strength while Bart is holding a draw with 1-2 clean overs. IOW, this action at this stack depth doesn't care what happens - the $ is going in at some point. He was shown the stones and was drawing thin. Deeper, the XMR is indicative of a marginal made hand wanting to get to showdown. As I stated, AJ was the bottom of this villain's range. IME, weaker players want to get worse Jx to SD. Even the weakest players up to the $5 blind level can sense when an overpair is in your range.

    I'd imagine in bigger games with more sophisticated opponents, this is a call due to the more aggressive nature of high stakes NLHE. However, the lower you go the less apt opponents are going HAM with TPMK facing residence.
    by 1Sonny
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,316Subscriber
    @TastesLike........

    I'll agree with the above if the villain casually MXR, then casually shoves the turn without much thought. Or sometimes they will put on an act before the XMR, then follow with a quick shove. These are very important things to spot.

    But your comment about the leveraging of the pot when short I do agree with that also. I often see shorties 3b not enough preflop offering good direct odds to the caller but otherwise poor implied odds and they usually have AA. So this might seems like a case of the same.

    To my 1st point. Last night I flopped the nut straight in a raised pot. Raiser checks, field caller bombs it (board had a diamond draw too) I decided to slowplay it as I saw the only other caller look at his hole cards and the rest indicating fold. Turn put a larger straight and the guy bombed it again. Saw other field caller not liking the card so I raised the turn. Because of the better's discomfort and pause I knew he didn't have the higher straight.

    Same day I was watching my friend at another table waiting for him to chip up and he did the same pause and subtle impulsive surprise during a key point in a hand which was a sign he didn't have what he was repping and at best his hand was TPGK.

    These little details can change decisions above. Most tight players are so unaware of their own behaviors. I wish I could video tape myself.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    Think of this as pure understanding player psychology. What are the motives of the villain? If he is the type that enjoys putting people under pressure, or outmaneuvering people then his psychology and actions will be a lot different than if he is a conservative type - which the description implies.

    Neither villain (action/tricky or passive/ABC) ever thinks check min raising will get you to fold worse. If they don't want you to fold, what do they want? There are some that "want to know where they are at" but the vast majority of the time those that think that way lead with "want to know" hands instead of check raising - especially check min raising. If the villain is a manipulator/outplayer type then they might C/R to "find out where at" as that appeals to their view of the game as one of trick plays, but that does not fit the villain description here.

    Other motives if they know they don't want you to fold? For tight villains: They might hope you will go more agro and re raise (only when strong). They might want to "just make some more money here" (only when strong).

    That's just the check m/r on flop. When they lead turn after not wanting you to fold, then seeing your don't fold, what type of player psychology is ever bluffing there other than particularly extreme versions of the manipulator/outplayer type? Its never "I hope they fold a worse J or don't have a 3" It might be "I hope they fold QQ+ but that is pretty rare.

    Amazingly , this line works in the right spots. Its basically, 1) test the opponent to see if he is strong enough to continue while giving him a chance to spaz then - 2) once the opponent demonstrates they are sticky - do something that seems weird but is max ev when it works. Because of the "seems weird" part it works a lot more than it should. It works really well vs people that themselves only take extreme lines with bluffs and re more conservative with their value bet strategy (not that villain here has probably thought that out)
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    I pretty much agree with everything everybody has said. Which is the problem. If I fold KJ do I fold AJ? And aren't QQ+ relatively the same hand strength? Especially since having a J blocks JJ. I feel like I'm never good here but then do I just fold with no info on villain? Do I fold to a min raise but not a regular sized raise/shove? How do you not get exploited here? If there wasn't a heart draw on the board I probably just fold flop. If not flop for the price I think I just fold turn with no draw on flop. Now obviously if you know V it's different. But with no prior info what's the best way to proceed here?
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    z7 said:
    How do you not get exploited here?
    Exploited by who? Are you going to show people what you are folding? How could they even know you fold AJ here?

    We are not folding to the min raise right? Just the m/r shove line. Are their really players in your pool who will notice you folded to that and then try to do it with air vs you and if they do exist would you not be picking up other clues in their play that they are at a higher level?




  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,828Subscriber
    I made the comment of this being exploitative but Im also assuming its geared towards good players who can exploit. Not the normal player we play against.
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    I just assumed folding %100 of my range was folding too much here. Now KJ isn't the top of my range here but it's relatively fairly close. So the right play is just to fold everything that isn't JJ or A3?
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