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z7 Posts: 70Subscriber
So game is 5/5/10(rock) game. Game has been good but recently became 3 handed for about 20-30 minutes. Main V is on button
~4000 effective.

Info on V: good amount of history plays really tight. Doesn't usually get out of line but is definitely capable of making bluffs with blockers and semi bluffs. Views me as tight when not tilted but fairly aggressive.

About 1 hour before this hand there was a pot with me and V. V was PFR and bet a Q 5 4 (2 diamonds) flop I c/c. turn was a 7 checked he led again and I potted. He tank called I led river for pot on a blank and he tank called with bottom set. All I said was "I have a q" (was semi bluffing turn bluffed river obviously).he turned over 44xx This hand was very relevant in my thought process for this next hand.

So I am rock in SB. BB folds and V opens to 35. I complete with Kc8c8s5s.

Flop(75) is J 8 4 rainbow. I check V leads for 55. I call

Turn (185) is a 5h (now 2 hearts on board). I check V bets 135 and I raise to 450. V tanks for about a minute and raises to 1550. H calls after tanking for about a minute

River A (~3400) As H checks V goes all in for ~1800.

Final board is Jd 8h 4s 5h As

H?

Now there's some key things here. I find it hard for V to have 67 here for multiple reasons. He is not loose pre at all. With this board texture I'm blocking (heavily I think) hands that have 67 in it. There's an 8 and 5 on board and I have 885. So the combos of low run down hands he can have like 9867 and 8765 are severely blocked.

He isn't betting flop and turn with nothing him having like AJ67 is kind of hard here too. It would have to be double suited for him to even consider potting pre that hand. He also would almost never repot me here because of how deep we are even if he did have 67 because he would be worried about getting free rolled. Not saying he's never re potting with a naked 67 but definitely not at %100 frequency with these stack sizes. After he pots I think there's %0 chance has JJxx or 44xx.

So what hands can he have assuming I'm potting him light on turn (due to the previous hand an hour ago) it feels a lot like JT97hh QJT9hh maybe like AK66hh KKJ6hh QQ66hh etc. I think I'm obligated to call turn and evaluate river. And then what's the river decision when he shoves on one of the very few blanks left?

Am I being too optimistic with my thinking here? Would love some thoughts as this hand has been bothering me a lot.
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Comments

  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,215Pro
    Love how the description is tight villain but has a key hand with 44 in it. Not saying how he is not tight - but a perfect example of how wide even tight players can be preflop in PLO and why tight pre and tight post are two different factors.

    Pre - fold is best for most players here as this hand will be a good example that low pairs, even when they flop sets, are tough to play out of position.

    As played. Flop. Like the check call - Ive mentioned elsewhere I have been experimenting a lot with very passive trappy lines out of position with strong hands in order to let the villains make mistakes.

    Turn. Ok I buy the arguments about your blockers reducing 67 combos - but a quick review - he was loose enough to have 44 in the prior example hand so I don't buy your argument that he does not have it because he is tight pre. Given you just completed in SB this card helps you a lot and I can see a C/R working often here so I like it.

    But when he re raises turn? I think raise or fold are better than call. Look ahead to the spot you got into on the river - SPR=.5 on the river and you pretty much need to check call anything vs a villain that will bluff a reasonable percent of the time and you already said he is capable. If you are going to call turn then jam all rivers.

    A big part of your argument is that he saw you pot light in a prior hand - so on turn why not just re raise and get it in? He will be making a mistake with a lot of his range if he calls, especially the flush draw part. The only value hands you are beat by are the JJ hands. Even if he has T9 and the A high flush draw he has less than 35%. But if has JJ even a 50% of the time when he raises here then you are in big trouble.

    That gets to the question of how tight he is post flop. We already know he was loose enough post flop to lead two streets with bottom set. Its one thing to make a naked A bluff once in a while - its another thing entirely to re raise a check raiser who seems pot committed. That's a ridiculously strong line and there are very few players I who would make that move as a bluff. So, for most of my player pool I would just fold at that point, and vs everyone else I would jam.
  • z7 Posts: 70Subscriber
    I took a really long time with this decision. My first instinct was "wow how does he bet flop with a hand that has 67 in it and get there." but the more I thought of what I'm beat here by it isn't much. Reraising I personally never give him JJ. I just know the player and he isn't opening up his stack here with a value hand when he can easily make a much less expensive river decision in position if I bet again. So what hands does he have if he usually isn't repopping me with a naked 67. 67 with some significant redraw and combo draws semi bluffing. I think it leans towards the nuts with a redraw but there has to be some percentage of him bluffing here. Even if he's bluffing %10-15 of the time I'm breaking even with my call. And if the board did pair I do think I'm getting paid off if he has 67. So there's some implied odds.

    I thought I'd call because I was pretty comfortable check folding on a 7 9 T Q or heart if he bets again. I do agree I should be folding here a lot but I just thought because I repotted him semi bluffing in our previous hand in the exact same scenario that he could be bluffing here. I don't think he always checks back river with bluffs or that hes always calling if I shove. I know shovings better but the amount of money it was made me chicken out.

    I know 44xx and tight don't really match up but this V is honestly as tight as they come (he was not PFR in that hand now that I think about it he was either last to act limping or the rock). It may be more accurate to say he's very tight post and looser pre. He's in a good amount of hands but rarely pays off and doesn't float much. He doesn't raise pre though without pretty premium hands most of the time.

    I liked how I played the hand until the turn call and wondering how spewy it is
  • z7 Posts: 70Subscriber
    Also it was a 3 handed game I didn't want to be folding too much and lose out in some spots and possibly have the game break. Is this hand too loose even 3 handed? Never playing this in a game with more players. Was also in for the rock already for $10.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,215Pro
    Honestly, if you are putting that much thought and player specific reads into your decision then even if you ended up missing something in this hand I would never call it spewy. You had lots of information and I don't see any problem with how you applied that information to the decision.

    I did not realize before it was three handed. Most players don't widen their range enough when the game is short or play aggressively enough pre with hands with showdown value. If he is adjusting well short he should be raising JJ hands but not so much hands with 76 in them. But just because that is what he should do does not mean it is what he is doing, and you need get player specific reads on how they adjust short handed. As per you calling pre with Kc8c8s5s short handed - its not the easiest hand to play but when you flop a middle set short handed you will be good a lot more often then full ring - but now I think check raising the flop a decent amount of the time is a good play. My argument for more passive play out of position is based on full tables - short handed you need to be aggressive from all positions
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