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Bizarre situation 2/5

Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Playing 2/5 with effective stacks of $850. I've been at the table about 90 minutes at this point and have a TAG image. I've only shown down one hand, a straight where the opponent had 2p. I've picked up a few pots here and there by raising pre and cbetting, etc... Nothing fancy. V is to my immediate right and from what I can gather, has pulled an all nighter and is in his 12th-13th hour of playing. He has tried to talk strategy a few times with me about hands, and while I have listened to get an insight into his play, it's been mostly one sided conversation. I suspect that while he has a clue about how the game is played, I doubt he is much more than break-even.

The action gets folded to V who limps and I raise to $25 in the c/o with KdQd. Folded to V who calls.

Flop (57 pre rake) Kc 2d 3d. V donks into me for 30 and I raise to 85. Villain goes into the tank. e.g. Forever. I've never called the clock on anyone before, but I thought about it this time. Then, it gets weird. He flips over his hand, 2h3h. He then calls. Calls? WTF? There are two streets left to play, several hundred dollars left in each stack, and he calls.

Turn (222 post rake). 8c. V checks to me. What the hell do I do here? I am behind. Do I bet knowing that he knows I can see his hand? Do I check it back?

Totally lost on what the proper play here is. Let me know your thoughts and I'll post the outcome, which was equally bizarre.....

Comments

  • On a board like that and with your image he really only loses to the top set of Kings. I can't see him folding to a bet when the 8c comes on the turn. Take the free card and value bet/raise him on the river if you hit a better hand.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    You don't think there is anything to be gained by the fact that he has flipped his hand over and you would think I would only raise if I had him beat? This was the first time I had experienced this in a lot of years of playing.....
  • There's plenty of merit to your raise on the flop prior to knowing what he had. You are ahead a fair amount of the time and you can get called by worse hands and other draws. But if you had seen his hand after his bet it would be a call to try and catch up and then raise when you hit. I can't see him folding unless another king or 8 hits.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    I think this is bizarre. I would check back the turn. What a weirdo.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Check the turn!... He is probably not folding and I think the best action would be to try and hit your K 8 or Q and then pound him. It's his problem he is showing his hand not yours. You have no obligation to check it down because of this if you hit.

    That said.. I am not sure I am raising the flop donk bet. Its not that small. 30 is more than half pot and I like to raise smaller bets that are obvious blockers ... especially if there is some obvious draw on the board. Many players who might donk bet with a bad K like K5 suited might actually fold to the raise.. I have seen it against me many times..

    But in this hand he gave you a gift , now don't but anymore money in the pot unless you suck out. He saved you some money for sure...Thank him!

    Wendy
  • Definitely check the turn, hope you hit and take his money on the river. I think you are getting looked up super wide at the end.

    Bart
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    Thanks everyone. I ended up checking back the turn and missing the river. V started tanking for a while on the river and started to mumble. He leaned over towards me and said, "I don't know what do to now" and checked. We both chuckled and I had a moment of Limon inspired play. I grabbed a few chips out of my stack and told him that if he wanted to, I would chop the pot with him since I doubted he really meant to proceed in the hand that way. He snap-agreed and mucked his hand and I chopped the pot with him. I had no intention of betting the river, knowing I was beat and, as Bart said, I was thinking he was looking me up regardless.
  • ILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    LOL early morning cashaments

    p.s. no need to raise flop
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Zach Z-H said

    Thanks everyone. I ended up checking back the turn and missing the river. V started tanking for a while on the river and started to mumble. He leaned over towards me and said, "I don't know what do to now" and checked. We both chuckled and I had a moment of Limon inspired play. I grabbed a few chips out of my stack and told him that if he wanted to, I would chop the pot with him since I doubted he really meant to proceed in the hand that way. He snap-agreed and mucked his hand and I chopped the pot with him. I had no intention of betting the river, knowing I was beat and, as Bart said, I was thinking he was looking me up regardless.
    Absolutely Brilliant!

    Wendy
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    ILYA said

    LOL early morning cashaments

    p.s. no need to raise flop
    To those saying not to raise on the flop: did you realize we flopped top pair + FD ? We are raising for value here , not to get a fold. There are very few hands that are ahead of us otf.

    Op- great end to the hand!
  • ILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    chilidog said
    ILYA said

    LOL early morning cashaments

    p.s. no need to raise flop
    To those saying not to raise on the flop: did you realize we flopped top pair + FD ? We are raising for value here , not to get a fold. There are very few hands that are ahead of us otf.

    Op- great end to the hand!
    Nope, didn't notice the flush draw.
    Now this raise becomes even worse. You're risking taking yourself off the draw by a set who bets/3bets. When you have the board completely covered like that, V is either drawing to 1-3 outs, or V has you beat now. Why put so much pressure on a guy who is drawing so slim? Raising the flop makes no sense.
    Take him for 3 clean streets of value, regardless of who's doing the betting. Let him keep firing with a lower flush draw that's drawing dead. Don't open up your own stack in case you're beat on the flop.

    p.s. V was supposed to 3-bet flop to 240, and then shove turn. And our OP gets stacked for 170 BBs, Because of a "minor" flop misstep - the "raise for value".
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I disagree. Based on the likelihood of villian leading into the pfr with a set in a small-ish live game, his range is weighted towards draws. Raising does so many good things for us here : we get the max when we improve, we buy a free card in the rare cases we are behind otf, we get more $ in the middle when villian is stubborn with top pair, we charge draws like A4dd / A5dd, 45, Axdd, 67dd, etc.

    Flopping this good in holdem is rare. Let's go for the max. Don't be swayed by the results.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I have to agree with Ilya. We are the preflop raiser but what kind of draw could he have? A flush draw and we have everyone one of those crushed with the exception of Ax.. or some kind of wheel draw or 56? This is I think is a way ahead way behind situation.

    Chili thinnk of it this way:

    1) I am not folding given stack sizes..

    2) If I raise and he has say some funky straight draw he might fold out his bluffing or semi bluffing range

    3) I only get better than my hand to shove against me or a combo draw of which I am already ahead..

    4) might get a worse king to fold and have that ABSOLUTELY crushed.

    remember we are not playing our hand but the range of our opponent. If I am not folding a hand I actually let them bet each street and I will call them because I am keeping their ENTIRE range in .. bluffs, combo draws, semi bluffs and better hands..

    this way I will win alot more if I have him crushed and will win a lot more if he is bluffing and I will lose the same if he has me crushed.. so overall I make more money in the long run because I can keep the bluffs and hands I beat in..

    Wendy
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I am aware of reasons to keep villians range wide by calling. However, he told us he likes his hand when he bet into the pfr on the flop. In my assessment, his most likely hand is a draw since we block kings, and other made hands that have us beat right now are so limited / rare.
    I advocate a raise because: there is a lot of $ behind and I want to have an opportunity to play for stacks.
    We absolutely want Kx to continue with so few outs - we also want to build the pot when opponents are drawing so slim.
    When is the last time you saw someone lead out and then fold to a raise when they have made top pair otf?
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    against this villain description I am raising the flop lead all day and making dollar dollar bills ya'll
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I believe that should be : dollar dollar bills y'all.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    Obviously I am biased since I played the hand, but, I still believe the raise is the proper play. I am at worst even money against everything but a set. I have a blocker to the set of K (horribly played if V has KK here )and the 2nd nut draw. Without being results oriented knowing what he held, I took his donk bet as a blocking bet towards a draw. If V had flopped a set, especially at the 2/5 level, I would almost guarantee that he would have checked to me. I have an aggressive image and playing hu, it is a virtual certainty that I am going to cbet in position. While thinking of his range, I am not giving a set much credit for the reasons just mentioned. I don't think he has AK since he limped preflop. I'm not giving K3 or K2 any credit. 23s maybe, but the very low end of the range. So, that leaves a few K's that I have beat and several draws, and I favor the draws since he led into me. I would expect a weak K to check and evaluate here.

    I don't expect him to fold top pair yet nor do I think he is folding out his draws to my raise. I look at my hand given this situation as a hand that I want to have a chance at his stack. By raising, it gives me the chance to get his stack in my the river if my hand completes. It also gives me the chance to check back the turn and see the river if I miss the turn and think he might have 23 or a set (which I wasn't thinking he had when I raised). Without the raise, I am going to be hard pressed to get 850 into the pot with a turn pot of 115ish.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Zach

    You know your player pool better than we do. I get a lot of donk bet folds.. So I tend to flat more hoping I get the big bet on the turn to make up for it. I also am not playing as deep either and those are certainly very good points .. If you are confident he is on a flush draw then by all means raise and even get it in.. even against the ace high flush draw you are a favorite with tp.. not by much I dont think close to 50/50

    Wendy
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    a levelling thing can go on in this situation if opponent can hand read, and knows you are capable/ tricky/ not ABC;
    since its a great spot to bluff, because 'why would you bet into a hand youre losing to', bluffing w/ KQ will look transparant.
    If youre TAG, few combos are beating him, since you don't have better 2 pair hands in your range...
    if you actually did have a set, he's paying off here, so betting like you have a set won't work. betting more also will prolly not work...
    opponent looks like he's shutting down, and you prolly have at least 30% equity. I would take the free cards.
    he's really just allowing you to play perfectly...

    this obv isnt that spot, but i have seen someone flip up a fairly weak hand specifically in order to get a spazz to barrel off their stack while they call down w/ middle pair no kicker because they knew the spazz wouldnt be able to resist running a bluff...
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