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$2/$5 - I Check Two Pair on Flop For Balance...

dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,872SubscriberProfessional
$2/$5 ($500 Cap) at Winstar

Villain 1 (UTG2 - $400): 30s white male, trying to play well, but too loose preflop, and a bit stationy post. Not completely clueless, but does too much calling and not enough betting or folding.

Villain 2 (BB - $500): Pro/reg, white 20s male, wearing "the uniform" (hoodie, backpack, and earbuds). Sat down with $2K in various denomination chips in a rack, putting $500 on table and the rest in his backpack. Couldn't be more obvious he plays for profit. Only been at table 15 minutes, not doing much.

Hero (CO - $900): 30s black male, just won a nice-sized pot after check/calling flop, check/raising turn, then overbet shoving river when draws missed (not called). Should have a pretty good image.

Preflop: Villain 1 open-limps UTG2. Hero in CO with 8 9 raises to $25. Villain 2 calls in BB. Villain 1 calls.
Pot $75. Flop 8 9 T. V1 checks. V2 checks. Hero checks behind...

Let's focus on the flop before I go further. What do you guys think of this? What hands are you betting on this flop? Is bottom two pair basically the same as AA here?

Comments

  • Pipboy Posts: 8Subscriber
    You say check for balance. I say scared of getting raised. You’re leaving value on the table by checking for balance in a 2/5 game. What history do you have with these players that warrants balancing anything?
  • Latrell1515 Posts: 163Subscriber
    Bet flop..IF BB calls I'm checking back turn on anything other than a 8-9..when you bet that wet flop it shows strength and I'd be lost on the turn with any face card that came out..we know a J isn't folding
  • chilidog Posts: 2,407Subscriber
    edited December 2017
    I would prefer to check this flop as the pfr if we are out of position. In position, I think we are giving up too much value from draws and pair+draws on this board texture. I think we can get called by hands like KJ and KQ here, not to mention all of the JT/J9/QT/Q9/87/97/T7 combos in their ranges.

    If we get xr by the utg limper, we can obv fold. But we probably have to call a xr vs the young backpack pro.
  • z7 Posts: 218Subscriber
    Checking to get 2 streets later on is fine. Like if you have KK on Q75rainbow or AQ on that same flop. You can get 2 streets value from 1 pair hands

    However what hands are you trying to get value on turn/river in this instance? Maybe a T? But overs come and a T c/f or straight cards or an 8/9. So every card is bad for a T essentially. And if you get action it’s ususlly either a T. JJ or a draw. The best chance to get value from those hands is to bet flop and evaluate turn (I would be betting lots of turns).

    So I like a bet. I think checking is losing value. I like checking made hands on dry flops. Not made hands where when called it’s usually a draw/made hand you’re beating like AT JT JJ.

    So this isn’t the board and hand to check in my opinion.
  • CrushLiveDegensCrushLiveDegens Posts: 63SubscriberProfessional
    edited December 2017
    I understand you might want to wait for a safe turn card before shoveling money into this pot but this is not the spot to do it imo. The main things working against you are: 1) You are not heads up. 2) Checking back here is just giving infinite odds to tons and tons of hands go catch up. 3) You have no reason to think your opponents are going to freak out and start bluffing like crazy if you check back. Because your 2pair is so weak (and yes essentially equivalent to AA), you can easily bet/fold/move on with your life.
  • CycleV Posts: 604Subscriber
    To answer the second question, bottom 2 is way way better than AA imo. We block sets and bigger 2p combos, we don't block AT or AJ, and if V flopped a straight we have 4 outs twice.

    I'm betting pot or close to it. Folding will suck, I ran equity (we only need 36-38% depending on out cbet) and it's a fold only if we think there is zero spazz/overplay factor. If we think the rec could blast off with ATs even just some of the time, it gets really close (but prob not much of an error either way). Against backpack boy it seems simple: he would've raised the vast majority of the time with 88-TT, QJs...tbh almost every hand, and why is he limping in over one limper? JTs-76s if he wants to ease into the table is about all I can see, or a hand like QTs that is playing the levelling 'this is better for my range than yours' war. I call it off vs him and it wouldn't shock me to see him roll over pocket 3s or 86s, again I just don't see what value he has here.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,712Subscriber
    I think we should bet as well

    Wouldn't betting here create a more polarized spot for villain?

    If villain Is a pro and we just took a "pro" line on a wet board, than I feel we should keep up the image and keep going for polarized lines. Let villain level himself not have him get to cheap showdowns.
  • DrSpace Posts: 709Subscriber
    edited December 2017
    Never ✔️ a vulnerable hand with a lot of equity. You get value / protection with a nice size bet and can get called by worse quite often. There are a number of combos that can improve to beat you that should be charged. This is especially true multiway.
    by 1CycleV
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,872SubscriberProfessional
    Alright, thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. I guess I had a little too much FPS here. I have made notes of the thoughts on when I should consider checking the flop.

    Let me throw the rest of the hand out for any other feedback.

    Preflop: Villain 1 open-limps UTG2. Hero in CO with 8 9 raises to $25. Villain 2 calls in BB. Villain 1 calls.
    Pot $75. Flop 8 9 T. V2 checks. V1 checks. Hero checks behind.
    Pot $75. Turn 9. V2 checks. V1 checks. Hero bets $35. V2 raises to $85. V1 folds. Hero calls.
    Pot $265. River K. V2 bets $115. Hero shoves for $390...

    Is the turn sizing too small? Is the river overplay? Am I getting called by worse enough of the time for this?
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    Villain has 16 QJ he won't fold, some 9x he won't fold, and about 7 better full houses. River shove is good iyam.
  • Spike Posts: 15Subscriber
    I would check the flop as well, The turn is a little small. I don't think V2 ever has Pocket 10's because of checking twice. You only lose to KK, 10-9 10-8 River is fine i think the shove was less than $390 if V2 started with $500 would be $115 V2 would only have $160 left either way I think he has penny of worse hands that will call.
  • z7 Posts: 218Subscriber
    Not sure about the shove. I like turn sizing.

    I’m not sure what worse hand calls here. He might think you’re bluffing because you checked flop.. so who knows he might hero call with a straight or like A9. But I think flatting is probably better.

    You can get away with shoving though because he also checked flop so it’s not like he’s gonna wake up with a better hand that often...

    Still I like call on river

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,872SubscriberProfessional
    Spike said:
    I would check the flop as well, The turn is a little small. I don't think V2 ever has Pocket 10's because of checking twice. You only lose to KK, 10-9 10-8 River is fine i think the shove was less than $390 if V2 started with $500 would be $115 V2 would only have $160 left either way I think he has penny of worse hands that will call.
    Shove was $390 total, not over the $115. Villain has to call $275.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,146Subscriber
    edited December 2017
    Didn't read any of the replies yet.

    "The uniform" -> LOL!!!!!

    I don't mind the check back as it reduces the hand to 2 streets.
    But if you bet you also get 2 streets. I just don't think either is going to bluff raise this flop.

    I think checking really depends how both players play. There at a lot of permutations I can think of in this spot for checking and betting. I do lean on betting.
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 582Subscriber
    I'm not checking flop with this hand. If we want to check flop for balance purposes, we should do so with hands that don't mind another card coming. JJ isn't a bad candidate here. 98 has a ton of bad turn and river cards, plus we can get a decent amount of value from a wide variety of hands.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,872SubscriberProfessional
    Spoiler:
    Villain tank-calls, then flashes the 9 as he mucks.

    Thinking about it now, I don't think this particular villain shows up with T9 or K9 offsuit, only suited, which means the only boats he could have would be TT or 8 9. I feel much better about my shove now after coming to that realization.
    I need to get better at looking at those type things in the heat of battle...
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