Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Thoughts on this creative play? $5-$10-$20

BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
Played in interesting hand last night at $5-$10-$20 HP.

V1 is a nitty young Euro, probably playing close to "optimal" preflop ranges. V2 is a bad bad short stacking fish. Rest of the table is a mixture of semi-soft regs with a few tougher one sprinkled in. $3500 effective w V1.

V1 open UTG1 to $65, V2 calls ($500). HJ (pro) calls, button (rec) calls. Hero calls straddle with A 9

FLOP: 9 2 8

Hero checks, V1 bets $175, V2 calls. Fold fold... Hero check raises to $600.. Thoughts?
Tagged:

Comments

  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited January 2018
    So essentially youre trying to isolate the fish right? If V1 reraised or flats, were probably in a bad spot & can x/F most turns, but we deny his random KQ/QJ equity, etc. & get hu vs fishy short stack for stacks now. I like it 3 way w/ this dynamic.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    I think with optimal preflop ranges and us holding the A the pro leads out 1/2

    I'm thinking we are ahead enough of the pros UTG range here. Fish not raising anytime probably isn't a big pair. Also probably deep enough to raise fold here to a raise since we hold the blocker to most flush draws that can take this line

    If I were playing I would have called but I don't play this high.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    I like it. Good players likely get out of your way and may fold as good as JJ/TT especially no diamond and fish can never fold draws so get value from them. I’ve done this a couple times with right flop and V dynamics.
  • maphacks Posts: 1,992Subscriber
    I guess that's fine. too weak to call and almost too strong to fold. shortstack is dead money and villain will give you more credit. on diamonds hero should bet twice. on blanks, I think we have to give up most of the time.
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    Having the A may help us out. V1 is probably cbetting all overpairs, a bunch of diamond draws, and some straight draws. Us having the A takes away a good portion of his diamond draws that he can barrel and be aggressive with. We also block top set, it's unlikely V1 has 22. This seems like a solid range advantage play, as you have more nutted hands and draws while V1 has more of a condensed range.

    If V1 does call, we have to be willing to rip it on most every turn card. Rep diamonds, rep the straight, rep the A, rep the 9. The only awful turn cards for us are probably a non-diamond K, an 8, a 2, and non-diamond 4s and 3s.

    V1 being nitty helps out too. Since he is so nitty and trying to play close to optimal, he probably won't get to showdown often and will just fold rather than taking the variance train.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber
    @bart isn't it a little too ambitious?... I mean unless your have some reason to believe he's folding an OP? Maybe knowledge that he staying outta your way...
    He UTG1 raiser, betting into huge multiway field (with short stacks). ...he obv can't have NFD...
    I dunno...
    If he calls looks like there's a good chance short stack will commit rest of his stack and he will see turn in protected pot which is great for him.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    Clock said:
    @bart isn't it a little too ambitious?... I mean unless your have some reason to believe he's folding an OP? Maybe knowledge that he staying outta your way...
    He UTG1 raiser, betting into huge multiway field (with short stacks). ...he obv can't have NFD...
    I dunno...
    If he calls looks like there's a good chance short stack will commit rest of his stack and he will see turn in protected pot which is great for him.
    Yeah, the bet sizing of the CB is a little disconcerting.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I think i see what you are going for. We assume we are beating the fish almost 100% of the time and we can put a lot of pressure on V1. I think it's unlikely we get an overpair to just fold the flop but it's not totally impossible. Mainly we can put on a lot of pressure on turn and maybe some rivers. If a diamond comes on turn I feel like we can pretty much always V1 to fold unless he has made a flush, which is a lot less likely when we have Ad. We can barrel on other turns as well but a diamond is obviously best and we can always hit an A or 9.
  • myalternateidentity Posts: 5SubscriberProfessional
    Love this play. If Euro V1 is playing close to optimal, he should know that we have all of the sets in our range and all of the two pair combos that he can’t. He has the strong overpair advantage but we have the nut/set advantage. Even more likely because we are blocking top set. We can be ahead of V2 a lot and barrel off on all diamond run outs. When we pile in the pressure with turn and river bets the euro will be finding it hard pressed to call. I’ve played some similar spots with some of the euros at Commerce and a lot of them are capable of making what “seems” like the right fold to them, so I should expect this play to be massive +ev
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    pot is 260.
    v1 bets 175. V2 calls.
    pot is 610.
    we raise to 600.
    v1 needs to call 425 to win 1210.
    v2 has 260 or so behind (should be calling with entire range here)

    i failed to see the "creativity" in this hand

    we've bloated a pot from oop.
    we've got top/top on a board that's guaranteed to change by the river.
    other than a 9, an Ace or a card lower than a 5... we're playing a guessing game...

    I guess if V1 over-folds a lot - and V2 calls with all kinds of trash hands, then this play makes sense.
    seems more like a "standard" play rather than a "creative" one
  • myalternateidentity Posts: 5SubscriberProfessional
    ^^^you play 1/3 bro cmon’. You don’t even qualify to make comments on these hands. Let alone call them “standard”
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited January 2018
    A good use of part of the optimal arsenal. Don't mind getting it in with the short stack. Blockers to peoples strong hands and continuing range. Looks fine. Easy fold if we get resistance.

    ------
    After hearing the podcast -- the optimal part is not to get overpairs to fold the flop but rather the weaker part of the PFR range and better capture our equity. We can optimally get overpairs to fold later on favorable run outs. If PFR is going to fold overpairs then always do this as they are overfolding significantly.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,820AdministratorLeadPro
    DrSpace said:
    A good use of part of the optimal arsenal. Don't mind getting it in with the short stack. Blockers to peoples strong hands and continuing range. Looks fine. Easy fold if we get resistance.

    ------
    After hearing the podcast -- the optimal part is not to get overpairs to fold the flop but rather the weaker part of the PFR range and better capture our equity. We can optimally get overpairs to fold later on favorable run outs. If PFR is going to fold overpairs then always do this as they are overfolding significantly.
    Yeah that is pretty much spot on. Because someone in my spot is supposed to have other bluffs besides combo draws and two pair plus, overpairs are supposed to call at least the flop, but that rarely happens--and rightly so, as in this spot because of the short stack I doubt f I am ever light here.

    Bart
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited February 2018
    myalternateidentity said:
    ^^^you play 1/3 bro cmon’. You don’t even qualify to make comments on these hands. Let alone call them “standard”
    ^^^good luck thinking this is a "creative" play
    I see this kind of play at all limits (including 1/3, 2/5 & 5/10) including tournies.
  • Acidhauss Posts: 291Subscriber
    love it
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    edited February 2018
    It's definitely pretty creative, but it's not exactly re-inventing the wheel. You're basically making a merge bet - you get better to fold (we hope!) in the form of an over pair, and worse to call us, in the form of whatever comedy hand the short stacker has, which he is undoubtedly doing with 90% of his range. You have a lot of positive attributes going for you this hand, but the problem that it's really just dependent on your image and the exact dynamic between you and the UTG guy.

    For me personally, I could never get this through in my normal game, because I just make so many aggressive moves and people are going to expect me to have TJ or two random diamonds here a lot, because I do, and also mixed in with all my sets and two pairs for value of course.

    When I see two good players go at it, often the guy with the overpair just sorta sighs and piles money into the pot knowing he can't really correctly fold against someone who is going to be bluffing with a semi-correct frequency and/or making some weird iso play like you are doing. Also at $3500 effective, you're fairly deep with about 175 bb's in this game, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable for him to stack off with JJ+ here.

    It's so villain dependent and game flow dependent, I don't think you can say in a vacuum if it's a good play or not. If UTG folds, it was a good play, if not, your read was wrong, and it was a not-so-good play. I know that's results oriented, but I believe that's a fair assessment :D
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    Edit to just say this: Also of note, if this guy is a really good player, he will realize that you calling out of the straddle into this super multiway pot actually widens your range considerably as opposed to if it's like 3-ways and you're calling him next to act in the field or something, you know? You still have all the sets in your range, but I feel like you have more random diamond draws and straight draws etc etc with you closing the action in the straddle here. That could be looking into it too much from his perspective, but worth considering, your position should lead the UTG guy to weigh you as bluffing more heavily than he might otherwise.
  • maphacks Posts: 1,992Subscriber
    Sean777 said:
    Edit to just say this: Also of note, if this guy is a really good player, he will realize that you calling out of the straddle into this super multiway pot actually widens your range considerably as opposed to if it's like 3-ways and you're calling him next to act in the field or something, you know? You still have all the sets in your range, but I feel like you have more random diamond draws and straight draws etc etc with you closing the action in the straddle here. That could be looking into it too much from his perspective, but worth considering, your position should lead the UTG guy to weigh you as bluffing more heavily than he might otherwise.
    yes but Bart has 6 more combos of 98o

Sign In or Register to comment.