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2-5 PLO - Facing a Flop Shove from Short Stack

Hero has been catching cards and has an aggressive winning image. Table is playing generally loose passive preflop and straightforward postflop. The BB in this hand is a hold 'em player waiting for his table on NLHE and says he hates Omaha. LOL

Preflop

Hero opens AsTsKh8h for $20 UTG. Three opponents call in position. The BB raises to $125 with $175 more behind. Hero calls thinking the others will follow suit, which they do. 5 way action to the flop.

Flop ($625) Qd 7s 6s. BB ships his last $175. Hero?

The remaining stack sizes behind Hero in order are MP $1400, HJ $1000, and CO $1000. Hero covers all. All are middle-aged straightforward players. Do we like a pot to commit and fold out equity or a call with our NFD+gutter draw to bring in others?

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Comments

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    If we had a hand that needed protection, or had a made hand with redraw , I would lean towards raising the shorty shove. Here we'd like a better price on our double nut draw , so why not let others in behind us? Do we plan on folding if we flat and someone pots behind us ?
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    chilidog said:
    Do we plan on folding if we flat and someone pots behind us ?
    Never on the flop. Perhaps on some board pairing turns depending on action.
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    Think this is a clear call. If board pairs and somebody bets turn we can just fold. Not a big deal. Raising doesn’t accomplishe anything here I don’t think.
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    z7 said:
    Think this is a clear call. If board pairs and somebody bets turn we can just fold. Not a big deal. Raising doesn’t accomplishe anything here I don’t think.
    Is there value in forcing out flopped two pairs so that sometimes we beat the short stack with a pair or two pair runout? A raise puts 76xx and Q6xx in a really tough spot.
  • revisionisthistory Posts: 14Subscriber
    Yes there is value in forcing out those hands. But you haven't described the other villains & how you think they would respond to a raise. If there is a player who cold called a raise with Q6xx or Q7xx, do you honestly think that player will fold to further aggression? Those hands by definition are going to be bad hands to play for a raise, let alone a 3-bet. The most likely 67xx hands (assuming a semi competent player) are likely to be 6789, 4567, 67910, AA67, KK67. Other hands are going to be better draws & combo draws...or even worse better made hands like sets with or w/o a draw. Do you think these hands are folding?

    Just call, the downside of building a huge side pot without a made hand far outweighs the small possibility of isolating the short stack.

    A third option (only if you can be highly certain that the remaining players will continue w/ their passivity) is to put in a min raise w/ the intention of getting a reverse free card. This is an incredibly audacious and I think spewy play as you are oop and most likely going to face a large reraise or turn bet on a relative blank. Or worse, a card that increases your outs but still doesn't give you the best hand.
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    revisionisthistory said:
    Yes there is value in forcing out those hands. But you haven't described the other villains & how you think they would respond to a raise. If there is a player who cold called a raise with Q6xx or Q7xx, do you honestly think that player will fold to further aggression? Those hands by definition are going to be bad hands to play for a raise, let alone a 3-bet.
    All three are fairly similar and typical villains you encounter in live PLO. They are middle-aged, rec players. They call too wide preflop, and once they call an initial raise, they are likely to call a 3bet. They look to hit the flop fairly hard before putting in big money. So, I do think that there is a chance that they may call Q6xx or 67xx preflop, but not want to put 1000-1500 more in on the flop without other draws. They would be very concerned about me having a better two pair or a set since they would not make a big raise here without one. Q7xx probably goes with it.


    Your point about the side pot is valid. If I were to raise and get called by a two pair or a set, I would have 36%-48% equity in the side pot.
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    edited February 2018
    If you’re going to beat the short stack shove with a two pair run out you will likely beat the other players as well. I think it’s a little optimistic to think 1 pair would win here when we have the draws. Could an A or K be good enough to beat the short stack? Maybe, but to shove here and lose worse draws calling us just to maybe beat the short stack with a lucky run out isn’t what I would do. I like calling. Other guy has a king high flush draw or hits the nuts on a 9 with no redraw and you can get stacks in or 1 big bet from a K high flush
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