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Line check.

z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
edited February 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
V’s unknown.
100-300 2/5 blinds 500 effective.

V UTG limp. UTG+1 limp H opens to 30 with 7c7s. Both limpers call.

Flop (100) AcQc4d. 2 checks H bets 60. V calls UTG+1 folds

Turn (220): As. V checks h bets 120. V calls

River (540): 4h. V check H check.

Thoughts on all streets? Not sure if I should be c-betting.
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Comments

  • ds2uared Posts: 226Subscriber
    edited February 2018
    I like preflop sizing.

    I don't bet this flop too often, even in position. Draws usually have very good equity against us and with two players open limp/calling, this hits their range enough they will continue. We get MAYBE 2 pocket pairs which limp/call to fold (88 and someone who doesn't raise preflop with 99). Other pairs we beat fold. And just for kicks, the A is on board, so their range is slightly more weighted to value, i.e. other suited aces. Also, all K X have 2 overs to your 77.

    AP, I don't like continuing on this turn. You got called by a player who called with the action left open behind. His K X×, though losing value, gained 3 outs (any Q). Obviously an A still beats you and is going no where. And what is the plan on the river?

    I like the turn sizing, however. Being in position likely prices out a lot of implied odds for villain if you have what you're representing.

    On the river, it's tough to find a bluff, for me. Q might fold given your line but what do you think of villain? You're basically trying to fold out a Q only. All aces call. All draws fold. And going back to preflop, I think you're up against a lot of suited aces limp/calling. Way more than suited Q combinations.

    I'm open to thoughts on my thoughts.

  • Fletch23 Posts: 112Subscriber
    I don’t know if I would have raised 77 after 2 limpers. It’s ok to open with because then you can try to thin the field and represent a big hand whether you hit or not. With two limpers already, I’d just limp along and see what happens.

    As played, I don’t mind the flop bet. You took the lead and an A flopped, and it’s checked to you in position. Seems like a no brainer to bet, unless your opponents are pretty tricky and will bluff check-raise you.

    As for the turn (shouldn’t the pot be 220?), checking behind and calling anything on the river costs you the same, but may induce a bluff from a hand that would otherwise fold to your turn bet. And if you’re beaten, it potentially saves you a bet. Classic way ahead/way behind.
  • TanyaTheEvil Posts: 54Subscriber
    I personally ran into a verry simular spot recently with almost exact board texture, it ended up being KQ6K6 for the final run out and i was left holding ATs after facing a turn lead and river check. I opted for the value bluff of $50 into $200(not shure if i bluffed but better safe than Sorry). You have allot of aces still in your range and not that many bluffs. I dont have my computer or else id break it donw some more but there's allot of club draws that your ahead of anyways but id probably down bet 25% pot here and target folding out QJ QK and QT (36)combos . Pot is $460 correct? Bet $115(needs to fold 80% of his range) he has 36 combos of a Q. + 3 FD KcJc, KcTc. Kc9c (JcTc maybe). 39 folding combos. Calling/Raising = 14 combos of suited Aces that would limp, A9s A8s A7s A6s A5s A3s A2s. 2 suited combos of each. A4s isn't possible. We get called by 27% of his range and fold 73%. Id still bet 25% pot or in the neighborhood of $115- $130 the good ole value bluff, Plus you get the benefits of having some bluffs in your range.(just manage your range to not have too many bluffs) Overall i like your line and sizing except your check on the river. I think you got supper lucky with this run out here.
  • TanyaTheEvil Posts: 54Subscriber
    Rember Villain is open limping. Hence not a good logical player so his range can and should be much wider with his Suited connector type hands etc.... If you had more info on V it would help but if not, V open limping UTG should be plenty and we still assigned him a conservative range and a $115-$130 bet works just fine. Just something's to keep in mind.
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    I wouldn't cbet this flop multiway. Yes, villains are limping, but a lot of junky Ax hands are in both of their ranges. And trying to get a player who limps to fold an Ax usually won't happen.

    If we do cbet flop, I'm checking turn. The Qx that called won't think you have an A, and Ax isn't ever folding now. There is the presence of club draws. There aren't many realistic club draws left though. Axcc is a big hand, and the Ac is out there. So we're looking at KJcc, KTcc, JTcc (assuming neither player is raising these preflop), T9cc, T8cc, 65cc, 86cc, 54cc....not a lot of realistic club draws. Maybe there is some JT/KJ/KT that's just calling a bet, but those are folding on the turn anyways.

    And as anti-aggressive as what I would do seems, I'm going against the mold and jamming river. We're only getting called by Ax and a weirdly played QQ. But we ensure that we don't accidentally lose to Qx.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    Pre is fine. If there was a 3rd limper, I'd probably limp behind, but I like raising here with 2 limpers. I like the sizing as well. My standard is 20 plus one per limper at this level.

    I think the cbet is ok. The limpers will fold here often enough with their limp/call ranges on this board for this to be profitable.

    I'm def checking back the turn. At this point, I just want to try to get to showdown.

    River is a check.

  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited February 2018
    Delayed cbet spot. Even a Q will call a lot and its very common that one of the villains has an A and / or Q and flush draws always continue. We therefore have poor visibility for our bluffs on the turn and almost never improve.

    I disagree with lines like @kaboojie above. We don't really want to bet one and done here vs two villains. And double barreling isn't terrific and stacks are short anyway.
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    Hmm appreciate all the feed back thank you.
    Lots of conflicting opinions, would like to hear more but Incase anybody was curious

    Spoiler:
    So river check check. V turns over AsJs
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,302Subscriber
    This is a delayed CB spot. As played? Notice where the limpers are. More likely they have paint in their hands than other cards. Now you have 2 callers. It is very unlikely you are ahead or if you are they have 10 outs on you. This player has ~16 combos of AT-AJ and 14 combos of A9s-A2s vs ~15 FDs and 32 GSs. Thus why the delayed CB. He will X the GS twice. All those hands have huge equity vs you are even if you bet small they aren't folding. So wait till the turn and cut the odds in 1/2.
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited February 2018
    It is not very close -- not a great c-bet spot. Suited garbage and Ax too prominent in limp-call range.
    z7 said:
    Hmm appreciate all the feed back thank you.
    Lots of conflicting opinions, would like to hear more but Incase anybody was curious

    Spoiler:
    So river check check. V turns over AsJs
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    DrSpace said:
    It is not very close -- not a great c-bet spot. Suited garbage and Ax too prominent in limp-call range.
    z7 said:
    Hmm appreciate all the feed back thank you.
    Lots of conflicting opinions, would like to hear more but Incase anybody was curious

    Spoiler:
    So river check check. V turns over AsJs
    I don't agree with this. While a delayed Cbet is a viable option, it's not the only option. I'm not sure of Hero's position, but as the PFR vs 2 limp/calls, Hero def has range advantage on a AQ4 board. I would not try a cbet vs 3 V's, but a cbet will get through against 2 V's often enough for this to work. There's nothing wrong with cbetting our mid pocket pairs here. Especially vs opponents we play often. It helps protect our betting range so our hands are not face up when we bet on high card boards.

    Despite the difference of opinions, I think the original poster can at least take away that the consensus here is this is not a good double barrel bluff spot.
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