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Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
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2/5 NL double check raised

2/5 nl
Villain 900
Hero covers
No history with the villain as has only been at the table for about an hour and I have never played with him.
Decent image doubled up an orbit ago with a full house.

Two mp limps Hero raises to 20 with 3h3d on button. BB calls both limpers call
Flop 3s9c7h
Checked to me and I bet 45 folded to highjack limper who check raises to 150. I call.
---Should this be a raise?
Turn kc
Villain checks I bet 190 he check raises all in for 730 total.
What do you do here?
Tagged:

Comments

  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    edited March 7
    I mean call IMO. If he over setted us so be it. Just not gonna make insane hero folds here at these stakes
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited March 7
    I'd be shocked if this wasn't 77/99, but it'd be hard to fold in real time. I generally treat double x/r without reads as pretty much always the nuts. 97s/K9s/semibluffs seem like longshots. I think fold > call, but call is defendable.
  • Chase Posts: 60Subscriber
    edited March 7
    I'm not sure about the merits of your turn bet. With the bet you've committed more than 1/3 of the starting stacks, and in general you should be committed in these spots because once you put 1/3 of the money in the worst odds you can be getting to continue from this point in the hand is 2-1.

    Are we committed on the turn? Let's start with on the flop. Would you think we are committed going 3-ways to this flop with SPR around 11? Against any normal opponent we are rarely good if all the money goes in on the flop (maybe some spewy players would stack off that much money with 97). What about on the turn? We probably still aren't committed. Maybe some guys will stack off with K9 here or Tc8c, but we clearly (given OP) aren't happy about the money going in on the turn.

    It seems like we are way-ahead-way-behind on the turn. Sometimes he has turned a 12 or 15 out draw but that's going to be just one part of his total range. What worse hands are you trying to get value from on this turn that are in his flop c/r range?

    Let's say you think of some. Does he c/r turn with those hands? The turn c/r seems like K9 at worst for value.

    I can see why you bet the turn, because once he checks the turn it appears as though we virtually always have the best hand, but if you consider his range, and that we are way-ahead-way-behind, and not committed, then checking back seems like the best play.

    So, as played (especially because you put more than 1/3 of the effective stack in with your turn bet) I would call turn against most villains, hoping that he has one of the possible 9 combos of K9 (if he limp-calls K9o pre) and not one of the 6 possible combos of middle or top set.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,416AdministratorLeadPro
    I double check raised a girl this week with 33 in the CLP Podcast here :cool: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/turn-leads-out-of-balance
  • psi1122 Posts: 127Subscriber
    I think we expect to lose against sets a fair amount of the time (middle/top set) given how strong his hand looks and his line is, but I think you had to call because 97s, K9 are possible. I actually think it's probably pretty close actually, but I would probably unhappily call here.
  • Hufftastic Posts: 19Subscriber
    I think you can rule out KK because of the over limp and discount 99. Given that, you're only losing to 77 and some partial frequency of 99. He could easily have K9, some suited combos of K7, or 97. There are plenty of plausible hands you beat. If you break it down by combinations even if it's only K9, 77 or 99, you're more likely to see K9 than a set and you're getting like 2.5 to 1. Sure you might lose, but this is a must call unless you're against the most passive of opponents.
    by 1hustlin
  • Sonny Posts: 298Subscriber
    edited March 8
    Your line does make your hand look somewhat disguised. Since you were the pfr here you could have Aces or AK that floated... In the future I think you should raise a little more over 2 limpers btw, $25 or $30. Thats pretty standard sizing over two limps and know I wouldnt be dissapointed to pick up the pot preflop with a pair of 3's.
    I think its possible he has 79 here and put you on AA, AK that floated the flop, or possibly but less likely QQ-1010 and is trying to extract value from that range.
    For whatever its worth I dont think he ever really has K9. Going back to preflop K9 could be easily dominated so I would think 79 suited would call more often pre than K9. I dont think K9 check raises the pfr on the flop. I think he opens 99 a lot of the time so I doubt he has a set of 9's. 77 is a real possibility though....
    In all honesty its probably what he has. Players at these stakes rarely shove without a monster. Still, I probably call but I don't love it.

    One last thing I wanted to add. For the whole "its just $2/5, you have a set! Call!" thing. Players usually don't bluff enough at the lower stakes and are pretty tentitave to put a lot of money in without a nutted hand, so plays that represent a really strong hand, at smaller stakes are usually... really strong! I've never played bigger than $5/10 personally so I cant speak from expirence, but just from what I've seen on streams and videos, it seems like players at the higher stakes are more likely to have a bluff here way more than at the smaller stakes.
  • Krista Posts: 165Subscriber
    I have to say that I don't think there is much chance that you are ahead here. The only value hand that he can have that you beat is 79 and most players don't check raise top 2 twice - he might check raise flop and much more likely lead turn with top 2. I think you are up against a set here almost always. However, against an unknown opponent, there is a spazz factor. I think you have to call just because there are some players who just decide that they are going to spazz out and do something crazy that shoves a bunch of chips in even if it doesn't make a lot of sense. You are getting around 2 to 1 on the call so if he is overvaluing a hand or spazzing 1/3 times then you have to call. I think that is a pretty safe bet against an unknown opponent.
  • justfourfun Posts: 153Subscriber
    Your hand is underrepresented with the flat call of V’s checkraise otf. Your $45 c-bet on the flop doesn’t really say much to V about your hand, and then your flat of V’s checkraise otf makes you look a lot like you hold an overpair. With your hand being underrepped - V holding a 9 7 seems just as likely as a set of 9s or set of 7s in this hand. K 9 is also possible but not near as likely. Since there are more combos of 9 7 than 99 or 77; and considering the pot odds you are getting; combined with the much less likely possibility of Tc8c; T8o; K 9; and throw in any spaz bluff/spew - all those factors tip the balance slightly in favor of a call. A re-raise otf makes the hand easier to play. Folding a set over set is always hard. Any chance to do so in this hand was otf.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    Results?
  • Bgoldenflop Posts: 6Subscriber
    Results:
    I tank called and show him the set and he said wow why did it take you so long to call if I had known you were that strong... turns over 8h6h
    River is a five and he scoops 2k put ughhhhh
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    If you raise, I'd raise a little larger here, but that's nit picking. Nothing really wrong with a limp either.

    One of the hands I thought of instantly was 99. And dismissed it. If we think about 99 logically from an unknown HJ player, that hand is raised preflop a high percentage of the time. If it's raised a large percentage of the time and players love to slow play a hand like top set, the combos mathematically are fairly close to zero.

    77 is a possibility. So is 97s. There are 3 combos of 99 compared to 2 combos of 97s. When you add in any potentially for even a one hand spazz, we can just never fold. And our hand is fairly underrepped, as has been said earlier. Not often are players raising 33 preflop in a multiway limped pot. The K changes almost nothing on the turn, aside from potentially some K9s hands. I think it's a fairly trivial call when broken down.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    Strange line by villain. Nice hand. As others have communicated, a call was likely your best play. Beats happen. Thanks for sharing (also FYI use the spoiler tags to hide results in the future).
  • Krista Posts: 165Subscriber
    So that is clearly a spazz and the exact reason why against an unknown opponent you can never really fold your hand - you played it right - got all the money in well ahead. Nice play. Unfortunate outcome.
  • hustlin Posts: 182Subscriber
    This. I pretty much snap calling fist pumping turn.

    As played I would ISO raise larger pre to take down the pot ( ain't bad idea).

    Flop is close. If it's fish and I see lots of 97 combos or something like A9 I may click back small.

    Their is really no way you can fold this spot. It's just nitty here.
    Hufftastic said:
    I think you can rule out KK because of the over limp and discount 99. Given that, you're only losing to 77 and some partial frequency of 99. He could easily have K9, some suited combos of K7, or 97. There are plenty of plausible hands you beat. If you break it down by combinations even if it's only K9, 77 or 99, you're more likely to see K9 than a set and you're getting like 2.5 to 1. Sure you might lose, but this is a must call unless you're against the most passive of opponents.
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