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How to play 4 bet pots?

iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
$10/$25 Game $2500 effective 4 handed

I open K K A 3 on the button.

V 3 bets sb as he has been doing very aggressively so far.

I 4 bet.
V calls.

Flop $1600
5 6 8

V checks.

What do we do?
Is it more profitable to check back this flop and get it in on blank turns?

Comments

  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    What are stack sizes on the flop?

    Regardless the fact that V has been 3-betting a lot makes this flop even worse for our range vs range here. We have no backdoors besides runner runner wheel which obviously could be no good. So I’m actually okay essentially giving up cause even if we bet, we are only getting called by better hands 2 pair+ which have us between 1-18%. and a pair+flushdraw kind of hand Which is basically 50/50. So unless spr is like .5-.8 I don’t like this board at all. Denying equity is not so important here because if V has hit this flop we have no equity. If V didn’t hit it he has very little.

    If he checks turn again on a blank, again depending on spr then we can maybe bet for value. But him checking flop still leaves the strongest hands in his range still there. I would check probably all my range here because I think it’s a mistake to bet here as the preflop 4-better with this exact hand.

    So what hands would I bet with? Either of the straights. Over pair +fd. Pair+nfd and some complete whiffs. Like QJT9 no fd etc. and take into my check back range hands like AKK3 no draw, pair+non nut fd etc.

    If board was 542 (and we didn’t have a wheel) I would be betting a lot more. But 865 976 T97 are just so bad for us

  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    Thanks.

    1.5 pot sized bet behind.

    If you check flop, are you folding to a turn lead on blanks? Or are you looking to stack off on blank turns?
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,309Pro
    Spots like this are super tough. Since we did not get 5 bet his range is likely full of non broadway rundowns etc. He has to know our range unless you have been doing this with a much wider range than this hand shows. There are many that argue that if you are going to get this much in the pot pre you should just jam any flop so you dont get exploited. I dont like that argument myself unless Im playing someone who will jam bluff a flop like this and I would rather just call them enough to counter.

    But what does a check from him oop mean? Does he see you as always being agro and stacking off here with overpair? If he sees you that way I also lean to check behind, But is he the kind of guy who bets if he hits his hand and hates getting outdrawn. Would he lead bad flush draw etc here? If he is that kind of agro player giving up then betting $1000 is going to win frequently.

    If you check what really is a blank turn - so much of his range that missed this flop improves on most turns. Check flop to evaluate turn is not my goal.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    Thanks for the response free lunch

    A tight aggressive opponent will show up with a lot of double suited rundowns here? So I thought there is merit to seeing a turn and just giving up if it's a club.

    By blank turn here i mean any turn that is not a club and doesn't bring more likely combos of straights

    So no club and no 4, 7 or 9

    When you look at his range on turns, he will have high equity draws, 2 pairs and straights and flushes. We are always drawing dead to the latter part of that range so choosing boards where it's less likely we are drawing dead seems intuitively correct.
  • z7 Posts: 225Subscriber
    I'm not checking flop to induce a bluff on turn. I'm checking flop cause i think we have way too little equity too often. And again I don't think V checking this board changes his range at all, as (depending on v) a check with all his range here is believable. So if checks flop leads turn on anything I am probably folding unless its a super small sizing. We cant even beat 2-pair here so calling a turn lead just seems optimistic. We are betting so many boards with this hand as the preflop 4-better that boards like T98 987 865 etc can be give ups in my opinion with this hand. Again we flopped soooooooooo bad that I am ok giving up the pot 10/10 times even if 3/10 he has absolutely nothing.
  • str8frush Posts: 16Subscriber
    You dont have the nutz so check fold.
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