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88 UTG WSOP Double Stack

JLBJ Posts: 172Subscriber
edited June 2018 in Tournament Discussion
Don’t play a lot of tournaments. Hoping some more experienced players can check my fundamentals here.

WSOP 1K Double Stack

200/400/50, I raise to 1K off 14K stack UTG with 88. Folds to aggressive, competent-seeming 20-something in HJ, who raises to 2700 off almost exactly the same stack as me. Folds back to me.

Seems like all three options are on the table, though I didn’t seriously consider jamming. Is jamming 30-plus blinds here standard, just going for the flip with AK or AQ (but maybe running into TT+), or just getting the fold from him?

I had been relatively tight, and was opening UTG. Assuming he knows that, is this just a fold?

I picked what I think now is probably the worst option and called. I knew I couldn’t call just to set-mine at this depth. My plan was to call on good flops (no A, K or Q) and count on him shutting down if he didn’t have it, since he would know I had a strong overpair if I called. (This seems highly exploitable as I type it now.)

743 rainbow. Check, he bets 3200. If I fold now, that means I had to fold preflop. I stick to my plan and call. Turn 2 brings club draw. Check, he shoves. I will have less than 1K left if I call and lose.

His actions scream overpair, but a thinking player can also easily go with AK or AQ here, having picked up a gutshot, and possibly a flush draw. This seems like a great bluff card for him.

Which is more idiotic now, folding or calling? And should I have folded preflop?

Comments

  • CycleV Posts: 1,141Subscriber
    35BB, you still have most of your arsenal to work with. And that includes 3!/f pre like he's doing, or raise/fold as would have been best for you in this spot. I think you identified the dynamic: He should know you're tight, and EP, and therefore almost never opening light, so more often than not, he should have something.

    I can think of 2 ways to look at this:

    1. If his value range is JJ+/AK, that's 40 hands. Let's say half the AQ and a pair of AJ, so about 50 value hands. How many bluffs do we think he has? If we go with the standards (A5s, A4s, and a SC like 87s), probably not more than a dozen or so, given you are seen as tight. So the question is, are there other value hands he would 3! but fold to a shove, like ATs? Or do we think he's much wider with his bluffs? At that point we're into a guessing game, when I don't think we really need to be.

    2. We might flat AA or KK if we're feeling trappy, QQ-JJ, AK/AQ could vary, but almost all other hands I'm either ripping or folding. And we do have to have some folds in this spot, right? If so, 88 has to fit there. He happened to find you at your almost absolute bottom, I imagine. I'd rather rip AJ or ATs tbh.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,972AdministratorLeadPro
    IF you get this type of flop at this stack depth you have to just go with it. I mean you leave less than 3/4 of a pot sized bet left if I am not mistaken.. definitely go with it on the turn. I struggle in this spot with this type of stack depth as well but I think the right play is to check raise all-in on the flop if you flat preflop.. Bart
  • whoisjoeb Posts: 61Subscriber
    edited June 2018
    What's your image like?
    Have you done anything that makes you think he could put a play on you?
    Is he even paying attention?
    Is he American? The reason I ask is I feel a 20 something european could have alot more experience that a 20 something American since the American likely isnt playing online.

    So we just got 3 bet and 88 is like the bottom of our range here. What are our options:

    1. We could take the aggressive approach if we've seen him 3 bet alot and jam if we feel he is doing this light. But this is not a cash game and when we out of chips were done, so for that reason, i don't think a jam is a good use of our chips.

    2. We call. I don't hate this. Yeah we don't have the stack sizes to set mine per say, but we can call and look to check/jam a favorable flop. If we do this we absolutely need to be ready to check jam a good flop. If we are not going to consider this option, then option 3

    3. Fold. Just smile and muck your cards and wait for a better spot, you still have plenty of chips and time to wait for a chance to play a hand under better terms.

    Also you should consider folding this pre with your stack size. People may disagree with me, but your basically set mining by opening this hand UTG with your stack size. What was your plan on a flop when an overcard hits and you had 1 or 2 callers pre?
  • JLBJ Posts: 172Subscriber
    My image should have been tight, but who knows how much others are paying attentIon. He was a stereotypical young American poker player, with full hoodie/sunglasses uniform. Whenever he went all-in, he would bow his head completely and stay down until the hand was over.

    Sounds like consensus is that if I call the 3-bet, then I have to be ready to go with it on a low flop, stick to the plan and not chicken out. Given that I was reluctant to do that, looks like I should have folded to the 3-bet and played on with a workable stack.

    Never considered open folding. If I got flatted by one opponent, I would have kept the lead and given up on the turn if I got called on the flop. With two callers, I would have c-bet a few boards with good textures but mostly given up, just played regular poker. But chip conservation probably more valuable.
  • whoisjoeb Posts: 61Subscriber
    When I have about 25-40BB's I am opening hands that I am willing to 4bet jam from EP. Playing semi-premium hands OOP in a 3bet pot is just miserable with these stack sizes.
  • justfourfun Posts: 191Subscriber
    I would not consider shoveing pre but would consider a fold pre. I don’t like the multiple street decision line. Make each decision one at a time. If you call pre then its a tough hand to play - for you and your opponent as well. Based on the flop your check and his bet then and only then is it time to make a decision. I don’t mind the x/fold flop line otf, Consider donk betting otf.
  • justfourfun Posts: 191Subscriber
    Oh yeah, fold to the turn shove. You are beat
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