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1/2 TT facing 3bet PF and 3 barrel

lucaspz Posts: 3Subscriber
Hero: T T (Position: MP2, Eff stack: $200)

Preflop: Hero raise $6, HJ 3bets $14, Hero calls (Heads-up)

Flop: 8 6 5 (Pot: $31)
Action: Hero check, V bet $14, call.

Turn: K (Pot: $59)
Action: Hero check, V bet $28, Hero call

River: A (Pot: $115)
Action: Hero checks, V bet $60, Hero?


The $6 raise is standard on this game, and I didn't have many information about the villain. I've just arrived in the game and he haven't made any moves that I could remember.

I have a few questions about this hand:

1) About the flop, could we check-raise here with TT? I think that we will have a lot of draws on our range when we check-raise here, so maybe we can get some calls from AK-AQ? Or this is just a standard check-call situation?

2) About the turn, this is one of the best cards for the villain to keep barrelling, but I don't know if he thinks on this level about the game, probably not. A lot of beated hands that he cbetted on the flop, are now beating me (AK, maybe even KQ). So, should we fold?


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Comments

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,872SubscriberProfessional
    edited July 9
    I don't think you are deep enough to consider checkraising the flop in a 3bet pot. You are right in that you would have some strong draws in your range to checkraise, but with an SPR of less than 4, and so few "blanks" that can come on the turn, I don't think checkraising this hand makes sense.

    Turn is really close. With the propensity of players at 1/2 to NOT think about the Kx to be a good continuing card, I'm tempted to give him credit for a hand better than ours and fold. You're really hoping at this point that he has A Q...

    River is an easy check/fold. You're beating literally nothing.
  • Sonny Posts: 245Subscriber
    edited July 10
    You need to raise larger pre flop. It doesn't matter what is standard for *this* perticular game. An open in a $1/2 game should be at least $10 but preferably $12+. I also highly suspect that $6 might be standard, but the 'good' players are opening larger.
    Open larger for value first and most importantly of all and also for equity protection. $6 just invites way too many players into the hand and makes the hand harder to navigate. Betting larger preflop will help you be able to put your opponent on a much narrower range of hands, and they will still call with all sorts of speculative hands that they normally would call $6 with, suited Aces, pairs, suited connetors, broadway cards, so you're still getting value. Going larger just narrows the field a little and helps from getting into tricky 6-7 way pots.

    As far as the actual hand goes... I don't think peeling the turn is that bad, it would be fine to fold there too, but the river is a clear fold.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,712Subscriber
    i could see us 4b here vs this weak 3b tbh. maybe too spewy.

    as played I like leading here and just bet fold but check/fold river on an Ace.

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  • lucaspz Posts: 3Subscriber
    Thanks for the analysis guys.

    Spoiler:
    dpbuck said:
    I don't think you are deep enough to consider checkraising the flop in a 3bet pot. You are right in that you would have some strong draws in your range to checkraise, but with an SPR of less than 4, and so few "blanks" that can come on the turn, I don't think checkraising this hand makes sense.

    Turn is really close. With the propensity of players at 1/2 to NOT think about the Kx to be a good continuing card, I'm tempted to give him credit for a hand better than ours and fold. You're really hoping at this point that he has A Q...

    River is an easy check/fold. You're beating literally nothing.


    I actually did check/fold on the river, but I think I should've folded on the turn, there isn't many hands that we're beating here (maybe AQ as you said) and by calling I was only hopping for a T on the river, otherwise I would have to fold to any bet.


    Spoiler:
    Sonny said:
    You need to raise larger pre flop. It doesn't matter what is standard for *this* perticular game. An open in a $1/2 game should be at least $10 but preferably $12+. I also highly suspect that $6 might be standard, but the 'good' players are opening larger.
    Open larger for value first and most importantly of all and also for equity protection. $6 just invites way too many players into the hand and makes the hand harder to navigate. Betting larger preflop will help you be able to put your opponent on a much narrower range of hands, and they will still call with all sorts of speculative hands that they normally would call $6 with, suited Aces, pairs, suited connetors, broadway cards, so you're still getting value. Going larger just narrows the field a little and helps from getting into tricky 6-7 way pots.

    As far as the actual hand goes... I don't think peeling the turn is that bad, it would be fine to fold there too, but the river is a clear fold.


    This hand was played in my country (Brazil) and on this game every preflop raise is about $6-$7. The players here actually respect this kind of raises, and multi-way pots are not that commom given the raise size. But I understand where you're coming from, given that I have played on the casinos in the US. Agreed about the clear fold on the river.


    Spoiler:
    neverlearn2 said:
    i could see us 4b here vs this weak 3b tbh. maybe too spewy.

    as played I like leading here and just bet fold but check/fold river on an Ace.



    Yeah, 4betting was another option, but I thought I would might be too loose by 4betting TT oop without any information about the villain.

    Do you mean that we should lead the flop on this board? I usually don't lead the flop when I'm not the preflop agressor, so could you please explain the reasoning behind this play?

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,712Subscriber
    Because of his sizing I'm assuming his range wider. Plus us leading here should be able to get called once by all his high card hands that won't fold it will check back.
  • Sonny Posts: 245Subscriber
    edited July 12
    "This hand was played in my country (Brazil) and on this game every preflop raise is about $6-$7. The players here actually respect this kind of raises, and multi-way pots are not that commom given the raise size. But I understand where you're coming from, given that I have played on the casinos in the US. Agreed about the clear fold on the river"

    And I understand where you are coming from. However, go an bet that $12. Who cares what is "standard" where you play. Play outside your box. Opening larger will always get you more value. These players cant help themselves, they'll call with worse. They'll even call to "teach you a lesson". I play super nitty, maybe one hand an hour. And I always have it, but I still make plenty on money since these players overvalue hands and talk themselves into making terrible calls.

    And playing gangster poker like that will put the entire table on notice that you don't screw around. It lets them know that if they want to play a hand with you, they should know that you're playing for stacks. As long as you have a good game to go with the big bets, the entire table will be scarred to death of you. You'll be able to dictate how the hand is played out almost all the time. Making every decision much easier for you. When you make a bigger bet and then get raised, you'll always know that you are beat because they dont want to play with a guy thats going to put them to the test and get the pressure put on them. So its a great, fairly cheap, way to avoid marginal spots. And if they are scarred of you, you can easily steal pots just because they don't want to be involved with you, just dont attack too much. Be very selective.


    by 1lucaspz
  • lucaspz Posts: 3Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    "This hand was played in my country (Brazil) and on this game every preflop raise is about $6-$7. The players here actually respect this kind of raises, and multi-way pots are not that commom given the raise size. But I understand where you're coming from, given that I have played on the casinos in the US. Agreed about the clear fold on the river"

    And I understand where you are coming from. However, go an bet that $12. Who cares what is "standard" where you play. Play outside your box. Opening larger will always get you more value. These players cant help themselves, they'll call with worse. They'll even call to "teach you a lesson". I play super nitty, maybe one hand an hour. And I always have it, but I still make plenty on money since these players overvalue hands and talk themselves into making terrible calls.

    And playing gangster poker like that will put the entire table on notice that you don't screw around. It lets them know that if they want to play a hand with you, they should know that you're playing for stacks. As long as you have a good game to go with the big bets, the entire table will be scarred to death of you. You'll be able to dictate how the hand is played out almost all the time. Making every decision much easier for you. When you make a bigger bet and then get raised, you'll always know that you are beat because they dont want to play with a guy thats going to put them to the test and get the pressure put on them. So its a great, fairly cheap, way to avoid marginal spots. And if they are scarred of you, you can easily steal pots just because they don't want to be involved with you, just dont attack too much. Be very selective.


    I understand and thanks for the input. In my next session there I will start to raise larger and see how the table respond to it, how many calls I get, etc. One of the problems of this game, is that the average stack is $100-$150, so people are not deep enough, but even then they do rebuy a lot ($100-$150 again). Will give it a try.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,146Subscriber
    I actually like a XR on the flop. You can make this a small XR to the pot like $40.

    But this is due to your position, his awareness to your position raising and the board texture.

    So if we assume the opponent is willing to 3b JJ+ (24) KQ, AK (32) then we are risking pot to win pot here and making him fold his unrealized equity. KQ or AK with a backdoor FD is winning ~1/3rd of the time. You also are never getting another dime from them if they don't improve.

    So if you play on calling a $30 bet OTT if it's low then why not bet it now and get the hand over with. It is HIGHLY unlikely he has a FD here. Usually @ this low stakes when people have AA they will bet this flop large clueless that it really doesnt matter vs your range. The fact he bet small is either that he is scared of the made hand or he has missed.



    What you crazy?
    No Im not. (say it like the Joker)

    He has a big pair... you are seeing 2 streets and paying the same price
    He has AK/AQ ... he is never paying you a dime again and has ~1/3rd chance to beat you.
    So if you are going to pay two streets get it over with now and make that unrealized equity fold.

    Now if he his 3b range is say JJ+ and AK then you have more pair combos than AK and XRing isn't the right play.

    So how does your XR look like? He bets $14 into $31 and you XR to $40. That sure looks fucking scary like you are milking him. It might even buy you the turn and river if he has QQ or KK for the same price as XCing.

    While usually this is an unorthodox play I think there are times to use it. Your hand looks completely polarized here but @ 1/2 no one is noticing you are so unbalanced to make a back move on you.

    How this play is balanced is by calling 3bs with hands like AA/KK OOP and making XRs with that and air and some other hands based on the range. You need about 2 value to 1 bluff due to the price you are giving. But @ 1/2 no one is noticing or at a game where no one knows you.

    Another factor is if this guy will 100% CB the flop. It means his whole range is here.
  • paratrooper1999 Posts: 2Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    You need to raise larger pre flop. It doesn't matter what is standard for *this* perticular game. An open in a $1/2 game should be at least $10 but preferably $12+. I also highly suspect that $6 might be standard, but the 'good' players are opening larger.
    Open larger for value first and most importantly of all and also for equity protection. $6 just invites way too many players into the hand and makes the hand harder to navigate. Betting larger preflop will help you be able to put your opponent on a much narrower range of hands, and they will still call with all sorts of speculative hands that they normally would call $6 with, suited Aces, pairs, suited connetors, broadway cards, so you're still getting value. Going larger just narrows the field a little and helps from getting into tricky 6-7 way pots.

    As far as the actual hand goes... I don't think peeling the turn is that bad, it would be fine to fold there too, but the river is a clear fold.
    Over the last 10 years, I have played 1/2 at over 50 cardrooms across the country and I can tell you this. $10 is the same as $6. The only way to "narrow the field" is by making the sizing large enough to hit that emotional threshold that some players have. Also, keep in mind that some players don't have one. In some cardrooms, this $6 "standard" bet is $10 or $12. Even when you make it $17, you will still get 4 + callers. Does this dramatically narrow the Villains ranges? No. You can narrow from maybe top 60% of hands to 50%. It will narrow the field and range but it is only slightly. So, the question is this.... So, lets look at it like this. Which is better? A. Opening to $6 and getting 6 callers. B. Opening to $10 and getting 5 callers. C. Opening to $15 and getting 3 callers. I will let some people chime in and we can go from there.

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