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Did I overplay KK?

RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
edited August 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
If I just told you the stacks and action, you'd probably answer the title question with "Yes....very much yes"

But the villain tho.....

He's mid-30's. Some kind of middle eastern. Soccer player build. He's started showing up in our cash games maybe a month or two ago. Confesses to being a rookie, and "learning". So he's probably new to poker in general. He's been a lot less weak-tight than you'd expect from someone that new to the game. Definitely has typical loose/passive tendencies like other 1/2 fish. And he has just a dash of gamble in him.

He's also been pretty aggressive with a wide, but non-polarized range. I saw him 4-bet TT pre-flop a few weeks ago. But the amount of poker experience he had at the time was only half what it is now, so maybe that's an old tendency.

1/2 NL

Hero raises to $15 with KK. Villain on BTN raises to $55. Hero re-raises to $255. V Calls.

There's $500+ in the pot, and he has about $450 behind. I cover.

Flop 6 7 9

I have the K



  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    What is your position?

    The 4bet pre seems a little on the large size, no? But he called it, so I guess the sizing isn't that bad.

    With less than a potsized bet left, I'm not folding. I probably check this flop, since we can still get it in on later streets. Gives him a chance to get jiggy with AK.

    Doesn't seem like you've overplayed KK to me...
  • Acidhauss Posts: 291Subscriber
    I prob wouldnt 4bet that large but glad you got action anyway!

    I think I'd check-shove and hope he makes a mistake with a hand like AK or AQ as dpbuck said. Even if he xb you can stil;l GII pretty easy on the turn or river.

    Regarding overplaying you have KK in a 4bet pot with 1psb left don't overthink it, yes its a lot of BBs but you raised to 15 and 4bet to 255 get the money in.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    So you have 350bbs to start? Yes you overplayed KK IMO.

    I would have 3b smaller if you know he will call with pairs. When you bomb it like this without any proof of how he plays TT+ you start limiting yourself to AA or KK only in his calls and allow him to play perfectly.

    As played you are kind of boned here. 1psb left. Bet fold would be ridiculous.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    350BB in $1/2 is much different than 350BB in $10/20...
    The 4 bet pre is kinda large, however, since you are out of position one could argue that a bet 4x his raise due to your position is reasonable so that'd be in the $200-220 neighborhood.
    I'd probably just open shove. He's already put in over 1/3 of his money pre flop, so he seems to like his hand. You might be over valueing your hand, however newer players will over value pretty much any overpair in this spot. Its a pretty "safe" board for QQ-1010 and if he is as new as you say he is, I don't think hes folding. It would suck to have what he would consider a scare card to come and kill your action on the turn, so I don't see a ton of reason to check/jam. If you check he probably checks back.
    It takes more than two months to figure out that a $255 4 bet is probably only AA or KK, even if you played all day everyday. Some players never figure that out.
    Sounds like he had AA but I think a newer player could just as easily have QQ or JJ here depending on how new they really are, and how seriously they take the game.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    Problem is even 1/2 players realize $700 stacks are huge and play scared. Thus reducing their range to call a shove.
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    So I shoved...

    He had AA. Kinda wondering if I would have ever got called by a worse hand.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    Some things to look for.

    Players RARELY 3b anything but AA/KK @ 1/2. Even at 2/5 they generally don't.

    This applies to facing a 3b or when someone calls a 4b

    Your position matters. If you are UTG and get 3b more likely they are stronger.

    If they nonchalantly 3b/call the 4b trying to stay quiet be wary

    Look for more subtle tells and discomforts when they are facing the decision. Genuine discomfort is important

    A short stack that should be shoving 3bs a weird smaller amount usually has AA

    Any decision for an amount of $100 @ 1/2, $200 @ 2/5, is usually an indication of a strong hand. In this case he called a $200 4b... Frankly I don't blame him for flatting AA.

    Many players will poo poo what I am saying. Online in general I am never folding KK. Live is a completely different story. I make correct folds live that would blow people's minds. There is so much more information live. You need to read up on it. Examine your own behaviors for correlation and consider them when playing. While these patterns are rarely an 100% change my mind answer they usually impact about 10% of the decision making of the hand. So when it's borderline that's when I look at this.

    In this case if he called a $200 4b and didnt flinch I know I would be fucked.

    There is also a new trend going on @ 1/2 and 2/5 where some of the not as clueless players, but still bad, are flatting big hands. Maybe this is only on the East Coast. I know in 2016 on the West Coast it wasn't the case. I moved from West to East at that time.

    Another point is that people are now starting to fold big hands preflop if the stacks are uncomfortable for them. Recently I small 4b AA vs a reg. I targeted giving him 9:1 implied on his call since it is mathematically incorrect and I was pretty sure he had a premium. I had to because it was multiway and I was OOP. Well he took a good 90s and folded something big. Most regs if offered 7.5:1 will call to set mine. They don't understand the minimum is 10:1 counting coolers and redraws for break even.
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    Fuzzypup said:
    Players RARELY 3b anything but AA/KK .
    Dude...I saw him 4-bet TT. That kinda destroys the entire rest of your post
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited August 2018
    You played it fine, and I like the open shove on the flop. This guy is simply not folding TT-QQ on that board once he's made it this far. You found the 1 time in 100 that a rec will flat a 4bet with AA instead of jam preflop.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    RagingOwl said:
    Fuzzypup said:
    Players RARELY 3b anything but AA/KK .
    Dude...I saw him 4-bet TT. That kinda destroys the entire rest of your post
    The above is in GENERAL vs most players. It doesn't destroy the rest of the post. Learn from it. I am saying there are a lot of flags you have to look at then weigh them. Harrington laid out a pretty good thought plan of going down a list of things and keeping track of positive and negative so you can step back and look at the big picture.

    In this case I think your 4b was so large it narrows the part of his 3b range down very small. But when he calls you are fucked and he hand plays itself no matter what you bet. If you 4b small and he 5bs you can fold. If he calls you possibly lose less or maybe you stack off just the same.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    I think it's important to understand that the only way this kind of post makes it to the forums is when V just happened to have AA or flopped a set, etc...

    The other 99 out of a 100 times when V has QQ or JJ or w/e the hand plays out the same, HERO turns his hand over at SD and V either mucks and you don't even see what he had or V shows you in disgust and there's nothing to post here.
    by 1CycleV
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    The 4bet is a bit on the large side. I personally would 4bet smaller, but you got a call.

    I don't think there is much else to do but shove the flop? AA is usually jamming preflop. TT won't fold; it has a gutshot along with an overpair. A hand like AQss won't fold either. QQ will have a tough time folding. 99 may be in his range, but fairly doubtful.

    The reason I like a jam and not a smaller bet is because there are so many bad turn cards for us that either gets Villain to fold or gives him a winner. 8, spade, T, A...even Q or J isn't a necessarily great card for us.
    by 1Rysher8
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