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1-2 flop trips with TK, heavy action

RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 757Subscriber
edited August 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$1-$2 Parx, noonish Tuesday.
$375 effective with main villian, although he has 1K+ having played through the night. MAWG, and for someone on no sleep, I haven't seen him get out of hand at all in the 2 hours I've been there.

Hero UTG with A J makes it $15. Button calls, main villain calls in the BB.

$40 to the flop (taking out the rake).

Flop: 9 J J

V checks, Hero bets $20, BTN calls $20, V makes it $50. Hero thinks for a few seconds, bumps it to $125. BTN insta folds. Villian things about it for a good minute or 2, and makes the call. Seems very pained by my raise, I don't think he's hollywooding. I think he has a J, worse kicker.

Pot now $310. Hero has $235 left.

Turn: K

V checks. Hero....???? What's my play? Check back? shove AI? bet like $100 with intent to fold if raised?

I will post what I did in 24 hours.
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Comments

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,989SubscriberProfessional
    Probably sizing up on the flop. $20 seems a little small on this board. I'd probably bet close to pot.

    His flop raise sizing doesn't line up with QT, so I think you can dismiss that. QJ and JT just picked up a gutter to go with their trips, so I can't imagine button is going to fold to a less than potsized shove at this point. I'd just jam. Cooler if you run into KJ.
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    I know this is frowned upon, but an open limp isn't a terrible play here. You didn't get dragged into a low SPR multi-way shit-fest. So, as played, your raise is fine. But there are a very very small number of hands that I would consider open-limping in this particular spot.

    AQ is a hand I'm happy to raise, and AT is a hand I can easily get away from pre-flop from UTG. But AJ is really borderline. It's a hand that's just ok, but then loses points for being out of position...and somehow is still too strong to fold.

    In a 1/2 game where open-limping is common you can easily sneak in this play without anyone thinking it's strange. So even though you're only doing this with an extremely narrow range (I'm thinking just AJ and maybe a few lower suited broadway hands), it's unlikely someone will figure that out.

    My thinking here is that it's really hard to play this hand aggressively, from out of position, and then get paid off by a worse hand post-flop. I think this hand works better as a post-flop bluffer than a hand we bet for value. Suited, 2 gapped, with an over-card....we're going to have big chunks of equity with unmade hands pretty often. I'm happy to let someone else take the betting lead. We don't care about being out of position since we'll want to check/raise pretty often.
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    Limping isn't a great play, and we won't get dragged into a low SPR situation being 200bb deep.

    I would definitely bet this higher on this flop. Both villains will have tons of hands that will call, and there aren't many cards on the turn we're extremely comfortable on.

    This isn't a great turn card. But I think we still have to jam. In fact, KJ becomes less likely than QJ or JT, as there are 3 total combos of KJ as compared to 8 total combos of QJ and JT. Hands we shouldn't discount either are KTdd, T8dd, J9ss, KQdd, QTdd, etc. Overall, there should be slightly more hands that we beat that call us than we lose to.
    by 1CycleV
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 757Subscriber
    Thanks everyone. In the end I did shove AI. Villian TANKED for good 2-3 minutes before folding QJo face up. I was trying to figure out if I could have done anything different to get him to stack off. Basically I think I ran into the one guy at that table who was capable of making that laydown.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,989SubscriberProfessional
    Shocked he folded. NH.
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 757Subscriber
    dpbuck said:
    Shocked he folded. NH.
    Me too. One of the disadvantages of being a MAWG leaning towards OMC nit, I don't always get paid off in these situations.

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    Bet more on flop because it smashes much of their range.
    As for turn play.... you are getting it in for the following reasons.

    Sadly there is really no bet that can charge him incorrectly in this spot with 2/3psb left unless his hand is face up and you plan on folding the river.

    He probably won't call $235 unless he has you beat and you hope he has a hand like QJ.

    Shoving and forcing him to fold also denies his equity for any draws.

    Only draws that might call are double draws.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    i think we can show some restraint on flop because a rec isnt folding trips on turn usually even if a draw comes in.


  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    edited August 2018
    neverlearn2 said:
    i think we can show some restraint on flop because a rec isnt folding trips on turn usually even if a draw comes in.
    Isn't this a bit contradictory? If we think he has trips, and think he's not folding trips, shouldn't we be plowing chips into the middle?

    As dpbuck mentioned, his raise-size turns his hand faceup. Just shove over. There's really no need to get fancy here. We're at the tip-top of our range, and our range is bluff-heavy. Even given the results...I doubt he folds if we just jam.

    As played, the bet/raise/2barrel, combined with the somewhat action-killing card was too much for V's QJo. That's probably because it's hard to believe that we would play this way with JT/AA/T8s/Axdd.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    But allows him to fold out weaker trips.

    What I'm thinking of is the FD combos aren't that many and people also have a tendency to bluff FDs so when a flush comes in we can still get value on some hands like AJ or say 23dd flush or something.

    If we take a aggressive line on a paired board gives us stronger value hands and less bluffs
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    Another thing about going for value when the Flush does come on turn that villain isn't drawing dead still
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    I'm still not getting it. You're saying that it's likely he'll continue to put in more money if the board gets scarier on turn/river; but you're also saying he won't put it more money on the flop before any scare cards come. Does not compute
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    if he has trips, he isn't folding the flop
    if he has a SD he isn't folding the flop
    if he has a FD he isn't folding the flop
    if he has a GS he probably isn't folding the flop
    if he has TT he probably isn't folding the flop

    Thus bomb the flop.

    On the turn you might lose many of the hands above. But it's fine at that point the pot is so huge shoving is right.

    if he has the nuts and you bet $90 are you folding? No
    if he has 9x, TT he is folding anyways
    if he has a draw there is no amount you can bet
    Only a big draw is he continuing and for the price he will
    Basically no weak hands will call anyways and only trips, strong, and big draws will call so charge the max.

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    RagingOwl said:
    I'm still not getting it. You're saying that it's likely he'll continue to put in more money if the board gets scarier on turn/river; but you're also saying he won't put it more money on the flop before any scare cards come. Does not compute
    what hands are we going b/3b on flop with? villain dumps a ton of hands. even if we play it say flatting here, we can still lead turns and get value from Jx and other hands. Just think we get more money if we played it a bit differently. I would have lead bigger honestly.
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 757Subscriber
    so how much do we think i should have raised the flop?

    so are you guys suggesting that instead of 3 betting his 50 by 75 thus leaving me 235 behind, raise his 50 by 150 (so putting it at 200) , leaving me 150 behind to get it AI on turn regardless?

    or just go AI on flop? see here i think he can find a fold when i make it 300 on top of his 50.

    There areca couple different thoughts above and i just wanted to clarify.

    The other line I considered at the time was to just call the 50, and let him lead turn for say 100 and river for 200. But I heard Bart in my head say too many action killers can come, villians never bet your action when you want them too so just fast play your big hand, so I decided to raise.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    You bet 3b for these reasons
    #1 to protect your equity
    #2 other Jx hands ARE not folding
    #3 you have the best Jx hand
    #4 a big draw isn't folding at these stakes.... shit they arent folding at 2/5.... they might not even fold a hand like 2 others and a draw.
    #5 action killers
    #6 V rarely has 99 and never has J9 raising
    #7 we hope he has Jx.
    #8 we want to build a pot

    We raise what he raised to set up an easy turn shove while denying odds. I think I would raise it more but under $200 so I only have under $200 OTT. Under $200 looks less scary. If the raiser is calling $125 he is calling $175. He might feel committed OTT with a bad Jx, a draw with 2 overs, a double draw. His raise size really depends on the player tendencies. Another thing say he is willing to call this raise with a FD but not the next street shove. Get more money in now.

    On shoving the flop? Jx is getting it in anyways if you shove now or later but has a tiny chance to fold. A FD with overs will 90% fold which is what you dont want. Only double draws call and 99. Also you might save $$. Say the turn brings the flush and he auto jams. Is he ever bluffing? No. So you play perfect.
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