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1/2 hand from a friend

FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,434Subscriber
Friend playing 1/2. I thought this was an interesting hand.

ES $110 vs main V. There is a convention in town so all of the players at the table are bad.

MP and HJ limp, Hero CO raises $15 Q Q BUT calls, MP calls, HJ folds.

$45 FLOP K T 4 :r: - MP bets $10, Hero raises $30, BUT folds, MP calls.

Hero suspected highly that MP has a draw. He raised to get a better feel on the player behind. He didnt want to be in a spot where someone calls with a GS and he isn't sure what to do OTT. But it is also possible V has a King here donk betting his TPMK for information. How often we don't know.

My thinking is that there are some Kings he bets and the combos of Kings that he bets for information outweigh greatly QJ.

$105 TURN 3 :r: - MP checks, Hero checks

$105 RIVER 9 :r: - MP jams his $65 in the middle.

Barring physical reads throughout the hand and the possibility our V might be bluffing something else. Should we call getting 2.5:1 holding 2 blockers to QJ

Should we play this hand differently from the flop?


  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    So, hero has QQ on KT4r, but thinks villain is on a draw? The only draw is QJ, and we block two of the queens. Seems suspect to me. If hero suspects he's up against QJ, why didn't he raise larger on the flop? Or bet the turn?

    The sizing is small enough that hero can just call the flop bet, though I'd imagine we're behind most of the time. River is a fold. What is hero expecting to beat?
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    I agree with everything Dana said. Call flop, don't raise. As played, the only draw gets there. Fold river.
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    Fold flop

    You started the hand 55BB's effective and you didn't flop top-pair. Hand over.
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    @ragingowl we can't fold flop for $10 into a $45 pot. We're good here more than 1 in 5 times.
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    limp call pre
    lead flop
    less than 50 Bb behind

    i just dont believe a 1/2 villain has worse than top pair with any material frequency, let alone 20%
  • Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    If they bet $25, I could get with what you're saying. When they lead for less than the original raise size, I totally disagree. They're stabbing with all kinds of crap.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited August 2018
    I'm the worlds biggest nit, but you gotta give a little action to get action. I think that this hand, if played differently and not raising flop, is more of a demonstration of how to keep your opponents having fun and enjoying playing with you than the actual money. We're probably beat, but its only $10, get that back, with the rest later.
    And on top of that from a "proper" standpoint, I'm not folding QQ for $10 to win $55. Its kinda close to getting a good enough price to call. Sometimes he might be betting a 10, sometimes a draw. I'm even more enthused if we think calling the $10 will get us to the river. I really hate the flop raise however. If he does bet the river, fold face up and laugh about how you had to keep him honest; by doing so you're encouraging other players to call a little light and hopefully that'll gain you value in the upcoming hands.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,434Subscriber
    I thought about this hand long and hard. I think he played it fine and should have folded the river. Here is why.

    In low stakes I think their bet is either a draw or a decent Kx hand to find out where he is at and once in a blue moon some weird Tx hand or a GS. If we intend to call the flop and the turn for small bets then raise now to call our price.

    #1 if we just call that allows the guy behind us to call with Tx or a GS. GSs are a lot of combos. We also don't know what to do OTT if the guy behind us calls. T9s and AJ have the same equity here. By raising we get Tx to fold, which in one way we want and another we don't, but it also forces the many GSs to fold. hitting our Q probably wont maximize our profits since it completes a possible straight. At worst case we get a read on the guy. If he calls without much thought we can range him more on Kx and QJ which are a tiny amount of combos. If the other guy calls also we are done.

    #2 the reason why the raise works well @ low stakes is because after you raise people play more predictable passive since the pot is getting larger.

    #3 For the guy to bluff the river would be a huge level of deep thinking and 1/2 players simply arent capable of it. Due to the flop raise some might think the QQ plauer did it to get the free card for QJ himself and thus the donker WOULDNT shove all in without QJ. If they bluff it would be a small bet.

    What I was thinking is what size bet do we have to call the river if he bets small? Considering there are only 8 QJ combos and so many Kx combos that might make some blocking bet on the river. And if the blocking bet is small enough and there is some chance is has some bizarre non-sense hand what odds are we forced to call?

    #4 I could be wrong here but I do think raising the flop is a less -EV play than calling the flop. Mathematically I don't think it is but making other considerations of decision difficulty and now bad relative position I think it is. Consider our 3rd opponent folds GSs and Tx but calls Kx. If we make him fold his equity with a raise we go from roughly 23-25% equity in the hand to almost 30% equity. So we put in $30 into $55 + $20 from the call. $30 into $75 we are pricing our equity in while increasing it and it is almost certain we get to see both cards. Calling is yields a better cost ratio assuming the guy behinds calls. $10 to win $55 + $10 for our equity but puts us in a bad spot including we hit our hand and still lose to AJ. Villian behind had a larger stack.

    I would have just raised more preflop.

    Raising more post flop I don't think is right because would we bet this hand more if the guy hadn't donk bet?

    Sadly my friend called and of course the guy has QJ. I wanted to slap him upside the head.
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