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2/5 Jacks in the SB and hating life on the flop

Effective stacks $400 and I am the effective stack. I am dealt JJ in the SB in a 7 handed private cash game. Folded to MP who is a young competent player IMO in the hour that Ive played with him opens to 15, HJ calls and folded to me in the SB and I make $70. only MP calls

Flop comes Ac Tc 8d...I have no clubs

I rarely find myself in a cash game with less than a 100 bigs and in a spot where I really have no fucking idea what I should be doing. But here I am......

I started moving up to 2/5 in the last month and maybe the jump has clouded my thinking. In 1/2 i probably cbet here, but I am also never <100BB's either. I got about $330 behind and started to cut out some chips to bet about $100 and thats where I got to thinking that I am committing myself if he calls and really couldn't come up with a plan other than to get it in on the turn.

Ultimately I didnt like that line, so after some though I checked. I obviously gave off a tell that I was not strong and MP made it $110.

I ended up folding, yet I feel gross about it.

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    edited August 2018
    Why do you feel gross about it?

    First...what's your pre-flop 3-bet range? How many combos is it with the flop cards removed?

    now pick about two thirds of those hands to bet. It's hard not to be value-heavy as the 3-bettor on a ace-high board, so balancing this with bluffs is going to be tough. Again this depends on your personal style of play, so I can't say for sure how many club combos you have, 2-4 seems probable though. QJ, 89, 87. I'd probably also bluff any gutshot broadway diamonds that you have. Maybe you have 97s. Anyway, I think I've named more than enough hands to fill out your betting range on the flop. And I haven't named JJ.

    If you do this exercise and find that you can easily construct a betting/bluffing range without JJ, then you're probably 3-betting too wide. On the other hand, if you find that you struggle to find enough hands, and you need JJ in order to be balanced....then you're probably not 3-betting wide enough.

    You shouldn't be asking "what do I do with JJ?" You should be asking "what should my range look like here, and what do I do with it?"
  • whoisjoeb Posts: 61Subscriber
    edited August 2018
    Yeah, i think I'm not 3betting wide enough and this is where I think I am struggling a bit with my tournament ranges and my cash game ranges. without going into too much tournament strategy detail but In tournaments depending on the situation I'm usually flatting or jamming JJ here.

    In this cash game i felt the 3bet was necessary for value, but honestly I didn't really put much thought into what my 3 betting range should look like. Even in tournaments, under the instruction of @JonathanLittle I have been flatting more in the SB with pocket pairs than 3 betting unless the opens were in the CO or HJ. So with that in the back of my head, I just felt a bit lost, which is why I posted.

    @kiLee or @Bart I am very curious of what your 3 betting out of the SB against an MP open from what we believe is a competent player. Although I feel I sized this correctly, I do feel like TT+, AJ+ might be too tight of a range in a cash game to 3bet, so I am guessing i need to be wider?

    Secondly not considering my stack size, what is our flop line, lead? check call, check fold?
  • RagingOwlRagingOwl Posts: 172Member
    whoisjoeb said:
    I do feel like TT+, AJ+ might be too tight of a range in a cash game to 3bet, so I am guessing i need to be wider?
    I know you didn't ask me, but I'm going to answer anyway. The answer is both yes and no. Your range should be wider, but your value range should be tighter.

    So I'd probably go with JJ+/AQ+, but I would also add bluffs. Suited wheel aces are great because they block AA/AK. If you were deeper, you could include medium suited connectors.
  • whoisjoeb Posts: 61Subscriber
    Seems reasonable, I appreciate the feedback. Since JJ is at the bottom part of my reasonable 3 betting range, I don't feel a bad as i did check/folding before i posted :)

    As a rule I try not to play big pots out of position against good players, just an awkward spot
  • HomelessPizza Posts: 15Subscriber
    I think you really have to stick to value merged 3betting range when at 80BB eff.

    I like betting flop with your entire 3bet range. This is not a WA/WB spot...the board is connected enough to get calls from worse. Most importantly, you keep your range uncapped.

    I think if you are going to check then you should probably fold flop especially at this spr, since your hand looks like JJ-KK and a thinking player would realize a turn shove is very profitable with a lot of semi-bluffs.
  • I would either check or bet tiny on this board that should be excellent for your range. Checking is quite nice with Axs that 3-bet, although you can certainly justify betting everything for about $50. When you bet $100, you essentially ensure that your opponent only continues with decently strong hands.

    If you check, it is important to understand that your range is Ax, KK - JJ, and some total air. It is often right to check-call the pairs on the flop and then check-call off with the Aces on the turn. This is a somewhat balanced strategy that will be difficult to exploit. Of course, if the opponent is a nit, you should check-fold all of these hands, but that does not seem to be the case in this situation.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    I have used the tactic is 3b then XC, XC, XCAI AK on that board vs the right opponent to balance my strategy. Then I just watch their eyes roll to the back of their head as they don't understand why I did it on a A76 FD board.
  • KiLeeKiLee Posts: 256Pro
    whoisjoeb said:
    Yeah, i think I'm not 3betting wide enough and this is where I think I am struggling a bit with my tournament ranges and my cash game ranges. without going into too much tournament strategy detail but In tournaments depending on the situation I'm usually flatting or jamming JJ here.

    In this cash game i felt the 3bet was necessary for value, but honestly I didn't really put much thought into what my 3 betting range should look like. Even in tournaments, under the instruction of @JonathanLittle I have been flatting more in the SB with pocket pairs than 3 betting unless the opens were in the CO or HJ. So with that in the back of my head, I just felt a bit lost, which is why I posted.

    @kiLee or @Bart I am very curious of what your 3 betting out of the SB against an MP open from what we believe is a competent player. Although I feel I sized this correctly, I do feel like TT+, AJ+ might be too tight of a range in a cash game to 3bet, so I am guessing i need to be wider?

    Secondly not considering my stack size, what is our flop line, lead? check call, check fold?
    We have very detailed 3betting ranges for different configurations outline in the preflop module for the Fast Track Poker Curriculum. Check it out. on the preflop module video 5, we have 3 betting range charts from the SB vs various postions

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