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QQ - 4 bet Pot - $2/$5

citrex Posts: 9Subscriber
edited September 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hero - view as a very tight player.
Villain - Mid 40, loose aggressive player. Has been caught bluffing 2 times in the last 10/15 hands.

We know each other from other games.

Hero has $700
Villain has Hero covered

Hero is dealt Q Q

UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG + 2 raises to $15, call $15, fold, Villain on the BTN raises to $55, SB folds, Hero raises to $150, fold, fold, V calls.

- This Villain 3bets a huge amount of time. He 3bets IP and OOP ATo+, KTo+ and other hands. In the past he called my 5bet all (+200bbs deep) with TT. I 4bet to extract value from 99/JJ, A9s+, ATo+. And because I knew if I called the other two players would call.

Flop - $332

9 6 5

Hero bets $100 and Villain calls.

The villain is really sticky and I think he would call a 1/3 pot bet with almost 100% of his range. Expecting a raise from some overpairs.

Turn - $532


Hero checks, Villain bets $200, Hero ??? [Hero has $450 behind]

- What would you do? If you have de Q:s would you play any street different?


  • NickEarns Posts: 21Subscriber
    I think you have to fold, or jam here. I don't think you can flat call, in this position you're either miles ahead/behind. We aren't blocking any spade, so he could be betting with an A with a 9 , I don't know how many times he has a 7 in this spot even with a lose player.... I'm jamming.

    Also, Im betting bigger on the flop, with this kind of player and how lose he is, big possibility he floats on almost any semi-connected board. The board is super wet, for a less then 1/3 pot sized bet, I'm betting more to the size of 2/3
    by 1hustlin
  • hustlin Posts: 289Subscriber
    Bet large enough on flop makes for an easier turn shove.

    As played I will x/f turn. One of the worst possible turn cards. 1 liner to a straight. And front door flush came in.

    With the Qs I would b jamming the turn heee. Cause u still got a flush draw
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,316Subscriber
    I like the small bet. It induces him to float. By the description I'd XRAI here. Perfect card for him to make a move. On top of that the odds laid at this point means he can't get away from his hand and he is calling with any A so you nailed him for max value. Even vs AK with a spade you are ahead 66% of the time.

    This is a 3b pot so it is incredibly hard for him to have 2 spades in his hand.

    Another thing why wouldn't he raise the weak flop bet with a FD?

    Look back at his bluff behavior and betting pattern.

    IMO you are not getting away from QQ vs this type of opponent when he called for 1/7th his stack a 3b.

    The 3b SPR made the hand play itself.
  • hustlin Posts: 289Subscriber

    hmmm looking at it again at a 2nd time. I think fuzzy is right here. Any flush draw would likely jam this spot. Therefore he doesnt have many flushes.

    You're essentially commited. so if you take out the flushes in his range. ur way ahead of his betting range. looks like getting it in here is favorable.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    You 4bet pre is pretty small, I think you can size up to like 200 vs described V.
    Flop bet is ok.
    Why did you check the turn?
    It's a bad card for us, but if you think you're still ahead of his range you can just jam turn. Unless you telling us that V is a maniac that way way over-bluffs.

    But here's the problem - it's a 4bet pot and you said:
    Hero - view as a very tight player.
    If V any competent at all he MUST be putting you on QQ+
    So, the issue is - would he be betting $200 into $530 pot expecting you to fold QQ+ on this board?
    That seems very far fetched.
    But if you telling me that you're known as a mega nit, I guess you can't fold, but any "normal" dynamic, I don't see how we can continue here?
    Not having Q is not good for us, but V can easily have a ton of other (than flush) stuff that beats us:
    A lot of 7x, sets, 2p.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,002Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    I agree with @clock on a larger 4bet pre. And I agree with @fuzzypup on the postflop play. Having the Qs wouldn't have changed anything for me...
  • citrex Posts: 9Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    I checked turn because I wanted to give him de opportunity to bet/shove with the A , K
    Once he just bets $200 my alarms go on. I think that he would go for an all in with a draw.
    But the $200 bet could be JJ/TT
    I would be more happy to check/shove having Q

    @Clock & @dpbuck - 4betting bigger because of the described V or because we are OOP?
    @hustlin - I still have space to fold, but it needs to be now.
    @dpbuck & fuzzypup- on the turn: x/shove or shove up front?
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    citrex said:

    @Clock & @dpbuck - 4betting bigger because of the described V or because we are OOP?

    The only reason to 4bet small it to induce a 5bet, but I doubt such dynamics exist.
    We're way ahead of his range and he's sticky, so why not get more value now.
    by 1dpbuck
  • CycleV Posts: 967Subscriber
    What are we beating, unless the guy is a total maniac? We're ahead of tens and jacks, some A9 that made a bad call pre, maybe T9 if the guy is a nutter, and airballs if he is even crazier than that. As said above, he put in 150 out of 700 effective (100 on the call), to me that's pretty PP and AK heavy.

    I think this goes back to pf read. Either this guy is a maniac, not just a guy who has been caught bluffing; or he thinks OP is a total nit who would fold AA/KK here, except no one thinks anyone ever folds AA; or he has a hand that can beat pocket queens. As it was written up, I lean towards the last choice there, but if OP has a different read and goes with it, as they say, you were there so sometimes go with your gut. But from a keyboard a thousand miles away, intellectually I only see us beating a maniac in this spot.
  • citrex Posts: 9Subscriber
    @Clock - thank you
    @CycleV - I understand your point.

    Although I didn't like his bet, instead of shoving, I ended-up check/shoving. V thanks for a couple seconds, says "it is a small difference to call, I think I can't fold here.... call".

    V shows K K river 9, V wins

    It looks like my gut was correct, not nice his bet instead of shoving......
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,316Subscriber
    You just hit the top of his range that's all. Don't beat yourself up about it.
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