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Is this a good 3 barrel spot?

2/5 600 eff

V older rec player. I've been at the table with him for a couple hours now. Seems on the passive/nitty side. I've been pretty card dead so I think I should be viewed as pretty nitty.

2 limps, V limps MP, Hero 35 CO w/AsKh 2 folds, V calls

(85) Flop QT6r x, I bet 40, call

(165) Turn 3(completes rainbow) x, I bet 85, V tanks for 30s, calls

(335) River 7 x, I bet 170

I've been trying to work more bluffs in and I thought this was a good spot.

Thoughts? Sizing? If I run a bluff like this, should I size up to get stacks in?
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Comments

  • CycleV Posts: 923Subscriber
    --boards where T and R can be scare cards might be worth bluffing. This one, I don't see why he'd lay down AQ/KQ, unless he's very nitty.

    --If you're gonna do it, go 100 at least ott, 200 otr. Don't let him start making hero calls cuz you only bet 1/2 psb.
    by 1fozbo
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    Thanks for the feedback. I don't think he would have many AQ/KQ in his L/C range. Any Qx that he has should be pretty weak.

    I agree that the turn and river bets need to be bigger. I don't think the 1/2 psb gets it done that often.
  • GrindThroughIt Posts: 23SubscriberProfessional
    Nitty, passive, old man coffee types, man it's hard to get them to fold top pair. Also, I actually find these types to limp-call AQ/KQ a TON, especially if they're playing with perceived aggressive, "good" players, because they don't want to get 3bet off their AQ/KQ or play a huge pot with it, so they just limp-call it. We block AQ/KQ, but as played it's hard for him to have much less, maybe QJs. But I'm giving up on the river--once he called the turn I feel like he's got QJs at the bare minimum, and might even be planning on check-shoving 2pr+ on the river.
  • CycleV Posts: 923Subscriber
    agreed ^^ AQ/KQ aren't raising hands once you're on a pension
  • hustlin Posts: 284Subscriber
    ^^ what grinder said.

    River giving up for sure. Looks like minimum QJs all day.
    Hard to get them to fold w this sizing. If you do plan on 3 barreling. Make sure betting larger like 2/3 -3/4 or larger. Put max pressure on that range. Even then it's not guaranteed they will fold KQ AQ
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,302Subscriber
    Your betting is all wrong if you want to bluff this pot. You bet really weak on the flop with a board that has many gutshots and OESDs.

    I would overbet the turn if you are going to bluff and give up on the river. Either he has a Qx paint hand or he has a draw. And he isn't calling for a gutshot OTT.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    Thanks for all the feedback. I knew afterwards that my turn and riv sizing were too small.

    V called the river w/QJo. It’s debatable whether or not a larger turn bet to set up a ps all in shove would have gotten a fold. I think that should have been my play vs my 1/2 psb. Thanks again.
    by 1hustlin
  • thnkpositive Posts: 23SubscriberProfessional
    I disagree with everyone in this comments section. You should bluff here, your sizing except on the river is all good, you did sort of pick the wrong hand specifically to do it with.
    This is a good hand to fire twice and check back, since you beat a lot of the gut shots that missed.
    hands that you want to fire 3 with need to be hands where EV check is practically 0, and also need to have the lest reverse blocker components.
    87s and A9 are both the best potential bluffs on this board I believe.
    Every single time you're firing your bluffs, pretend like you want a call. remember that theoretically the only reason we bluff is to add value to our value component of our range. At equilibrium ALL bluffs are supposed to break even. (That won't happen in these games, you will profit here because everyone is such a tight as hell nit. But still apply the maximum pressure you can, because if people start calling down too light you'd like to have value hands in those spots as well.)
    for reference, my bet sizing would've been 60/150/AI.
    Also blocking AQ/KQ doesn't really matter here because like you said, he limp called it's really not in his range. You really want to block 89, Q9 and QJ. which is the ACTUAL top of his range in this spot.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    Not that it matters all that much because I don't think most opponents are even thinking about it, but when you 3 barrell here the value range you are representing is pretty thin. AA, KK, AQ, QQ, and 1010, maybe you could throw in Q10 suited but I'm probably not opening that.
    Granted that range is going to be slightly more combos of value than bluffs, but its still pretty thin.
    I think I'd like the line more if the board was like 9 high. It just adds in more hands we can have for value.
    I'll be completly honest though, I'm not comfortable 3 barrelling hardly ever. Nor do I know much about it, or attempt it often. And the times I have attempted it, it usually doesnt work... and I really believe the reason it doesn't work is because players usually don't like to fold top pair to a bet, they might fold top pair to a raise or a check raise, but not a single bet heads up from the pfr.
    The sizing question is funny too right, say you did have AA. $170 on the river would be a good size for a value bet if you did have AA. So I think the sizing is consistant with the story youre telling, so it should be a great bet, but again, players just dont like folding. If you bet $200 or more on the river it looks more like a bluff... if I am bluffing a river, I usually prefer something huge, it will look bluffy, but most players will just shrug and say they can't call a big bet with their one pair/top pair hands.

    If I am going to bluff I'd rather try it as a check raise in a bloated pot that no one seems to have much interest in, or something like that. These bluffs are repping even thinner, but players don't see check raise bluffs very often so they are much more scarred of them.
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