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Multi-Way OOP W/ Medium OverPair

SofaKing Posts: 8Member
edited September 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2-5 NL Hero 600 effective.
Hero open 10♣️10♠️ to $20 utg MP1/HJ/CO/Button(the villain)/BBcall.
Flop: 5♥️7♣️9♣️ (120).
Check to button bet 95.
Hero call/MP1 call.
Turn: 2♠️ (405) check/check Button bet 245.
Hero ship for 485.
MP1 fold button call.
River: 3♣️ (1375).
Button has 9♥️5♣️ (2 pair)

Villain has been running good past month but i don’t see him as winning player.

In the moment I though villain could have any pair + straight draw or even a combo flush draw and I wanted a clean turn. When MP1 calls flop I am fairly certain he has flush draw which makes it unlikely Button has a flush draw.
I would really like some feedback/constructed criticism on this spot.

The more I think of it I feel like the flop can be just be a check/fold since we are way out of position, it feels like a very marginal spot since so many people are in the hand. There’s about only 6 dry turn cards. But then am I only playing to flop a set, since 10’s are so terrible multi-way.
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Comments

  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    I don't think 10's are terrible multi way, but I think you should be playing them aggressively to protect your equity and be happy to take down a small pot with them. The pot is already $120, if no one has anything and we just take it down without a fight thats 25BB for free basically. It didnt go down like that, but it will a fair amount of the time with a board like this.

    So because of that, I think I would C-bet this board with 10's almost every time. We probably have the best hand on this board, so we're going for value. And this board is about as clean as we can ask for with 10's... Because of that then bet/folding becomes a better option than check/calling.

    Imagine you bet c-bet your 10's on the flop... the villain would probably raise you on the flop because his own hand is so vulnerable. Maybe this would be a good spot to bail out? Getting raised with 10's on this board is pretty bad since we only beat a bluff or the ocasional A9, but I doubt that hand is raising you...
    But I could see peeling and seeing a turn, then once you check the turn and he cantinues to bet again after you raised pre and bet the flop, hes basically saying "I can beat Aces", so I would be inclined to fold now for sure.

    I really dont see the point of jamming the turn, yeah he might be on a draw or pair+ draw, but he also can have all the sets, lots of two pair, or even have flopped the straight, shoot he could even have Jacks or Queens sometimes depending. And for only $240 more we're almost always getting called. Very little fold equity, so we have to be 100% sure we have the best hand, and there are multiple signs telling us we dont. Just him betting and betting again is bad for us...
  • CycleV Posts: 1,027Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    There are currently 2 HHs with TT, and I see them very differently. The other one, we're 4 way on a pretty dry board, and IP vs 3 V's. Consensus is cbet. Here, we're OOP vs more than half the table, on a sopping wet board. Even though the flop bettor was last to act, I can't see defending TT here. Hell, I might fold QQ and debate KK/AA, esp without flush blocker.

    An important point about defending is the configuration. Sure, flop bettor was last to act otf, but there's a bunch of dudes behind us so if we call, we could still get squeezed.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    @CycleV Even though the configuration of this hand is pretty terrible don't you think its worth leading at least maybe a $50-60 c-bet? This board is pretty decent for our hand. Not only is it likely that we have the best pair, we block some scary draws like clubs and the upper end of a straight draw.
    I think if the board was paired, had 3 to a straight, or something like that I would definately be looking to check and probably fold.
    As played if it was me and I didn't bet, then anyone else bets, I'd be leaning towards a fold instead of a peel, but I think not betting invites the button to bet thinking they may have the best hand with any pair, and you just have AK, AQ, etc.
    As the original poster sort of pointed out playing 10's (or 7's, 8's, and 9's) UTG as a set mine is just kinda weak. If we're going to take that route maybe we shouldn't be playing these hands for a raise UTG and either just fold or limp call.
    Fwiw, I think 8's+ should be opened UTG, but I'd be willing to listen to arguments against that. Smaller pairs I think can sometimes be opened and sometimes be limp/called depending on how passive the game is.

    I think in this specific hand btw the truth is revealed on the turn. Lots of hands might take a stab on the flop, but once the button bets $245 on the turn I think its pretty clear he has a pretty good hand. He could just check back everything if he wasn't sure if he was good or not. Most players aren't betting that big with A9 here, for example. Theyre looking to get to showdown.
    by 1CycleV
  • hustlin Posts: 299Subscriber
    Don't mind a check or a bet in ur position as UTG. It's 6 way to the flop. And u got relative bad position to the other villains.

    Flop I'm fine with.

    On the turn is were it's dicey. Jamming is kinda over playing ur hand here. U have MP + the button to be concerned about. What are they calling with? If HU jamming or leading is cool.

    I would lean towards x/f here. Kind of conservative. But it's kinda an icky spot. I mean what is villain really betting here against 2 villains,
    Seems stronger range. Even if villain is quite wide. MP is somewhat of a concern as well.
    by 1CycleV
  • SofaKing Posts: 8Member
    edited September 2018
    Thanks for the helpful discussion. I’ve read over the comments a couple times and thought about the hand a little more. There are really no good turn cards for this specific holding. It seems as though betting the flop for about 1/2 the pot might be the play here as it can often take the pot down and charge draws. Denying equity of other hands. But when called this hand basically has to shut down the betting after the flop since it can not really improve.
    by 1CycleV
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    Bet the flop... you don't need to blast it because many hands have a lot of equity and position on you which basically gives them an advantage. You do want to push out all KQ, AK, QT hands from the pot to deny their equity.

    As played I like that you made a decision OTT to XRAI or fold but usually this bet size from a rec means he has a strong hand. Already his flop bet size is an indicator of that. Since you hold 2 of the drawing cards AND a club it's less likely he has the draw. Also consider your TT is the smaller overpair to the board on a MADE board.

    If you had KK or AA I can more see a XRAI but I'd fold the turn to the bet. JJ and QQ could be in his range.
    He is betting a huge amount into 2 people on a made board.
    He is a rec and bet a committing amount OTT.

  • CycleV Posts: 1,027Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    @CycleV Even though the configuration of this hand is pretty terrible don't you think its worth leading at least maybe a $50-60 c-bet? This board is pretty decent for our hand. Not only is it likely that we have the best pair, we block some scary draws like clubs and the upper end of a straight draw.
    I'm not against a cbet, but I would probably only do it on tables where I had a great image and not many tricky players in the hand. As Sofa mentioned, we're not going to like most turn cards, and tbh I'm not sure we will ever know where we are in this hand (unless we spike a T or the bettor shuts down). It feels like unless we get all folds or maybe just 1 passive caller, this is a one-barrel then fold spot, which seems like it's a leak.

    I'm def opening TT utg (I do fold 66-, sometimes 88- depending on the table), but when more than half the table sees the flop and our position sucks, I'm pretty willing to live to fight another day while complaining about how my AK never hits. ;)
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    CycleV said:
    while complaining about how my AK never hits.
    Or AQ, or "Man thats a bad flop for my Jacks!" Lol

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