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$5/$5 - Gutshot Straight Flush Draw Played Passively

dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,046Subscriber
$5/$5 $1K Cap at Winstar

Villain in HJ is pretty decent, tight aggressive asian. Definitely a winner in the game.
Hero UTG has a great image, playing well and running well.
Others in the hand are typical loose/passive players.

Villain has $1300. I cover.

Preflop: Hero UTG raises 9 9 to $20. Villain in HJ calls. CO, SB, and BB also call.
Pot $100. Flop Q 8 2. SB checks. BB checks. Hero checks. Villain checks. CO checks.
Pot $100. Turn J. SB checks. BB checks. Hero checks (?). Villain bets $65. Folds to hero. Hero calls (?).
Pot $230. River Q. Hero checks. Villan bets $140. Can we herocall? Not sure if villain valuebets a jack on the river or not...

Thoughts on all decision points? Did I play this too passively? Or dump this at some point?
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Comments

  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 448Subscriber
    I tend to not get too adventurous in a 5 way pot so I like the turn check. Calling Vs turn bet seems reasonable with draws and the chance we still have the best hand.

    The river is somewhat close but I think I fold. If you consider what a decent players call range is vs your utg open, I think V usually hits the board pretty hard here. The reason I might call is we block so many value hands.

    I can see an argument for a call, but I’d fold.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,976AdministratorLeadPro
    edited October 2018
    Only thing you are really beating here is KTos with a and it doesnt even seem like V1 calls with that preflop given your description. I would value bet AJ all day long her as the V1.
  • hustlin Posts: 311Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    Liked ur line. Very niceeee.

    Ooh as played. Seems very very close.
    Like BART said he would bet AJ all day.


    Let’s see, villain is solid . So therefore he should of a solid betting range.
    AJ, KJ, some combos of Qx ( I can see villain checking some weak Q’s on flop)
    Bluffs would be yah K10, Ax with a spade.

    If villain is not capable of betting J’s On river than it would be a much easier call.
    Based on the info I don’t mind a call. Getting decent odds.u block 910.
  • Oback2 Posts: 206Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    Nah i don’t think this is a good hero call - I’d generally just fold but run a x/r bluff at some low frequency - especially vs villains that are going too thin.

    Just something to think about and to possibly add to some people’s games: Sometimes, I’d run it as b/b bluff due to the multi way nature of the board and how I construct my multi-way flop cbetting range. Less multi-way then I really like a x/c turn, x/r river, or a x/r turn, b a lot of rivers.

    The important thing is to have a well constructed range through various lines though, and to recognize this is a good bluff combo - given the multi-way nature it somewhat limits the creativity though because our flop strategy is relatively face up so playing ABC is generally going to be correct and just fold this river.


  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,046Subscriber
    I appreciate everyone's feedback.

    Here's a couple of the thoughts that went through my head that made me want to call the river:
    - Villain has all the combos of KT and AT to have as bluffs.
    - I block 9T.
    - He bets sets and Qx on the flop, along with strong flush draws. So I'm really only worried about a thinly bet Jx, which I'm not 100% sure bets the turn five ways.
    - His river sizing is not indicative of a jack. Why would he bet this sizing? It felt like he was very polarized with this bet.

    Reasons to fold the river:
    - I opened UTG, so villain should have a tighter preflop range, yielding more value.
    - My range is capped. With my line, I never have a boat. I never have a queen. I never have a flush. @oback2 makes a great point with the way I've constructed my range on this hand. (Maybe that's an argument for betting the turn?)
    - Villain is decent and probably capable of valuebetting a jack on the turn and river.

    I did ponder a checkraise, but figured I wasn't repping much with that line, and would only fold out hands I was already beating.
  • ohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    I like the line up to the river. We shouldn't be cbetting this flop, and the turn, while it did give us a little equity, isn't necessarily as good for us as we think. If we were not last to act once V bets, then we probably should fold. But being last to act, I think we can defend and hope to play a little 5th street chicken.

    I don't think we can call the river bet. His range is going to be a bit tighter since you opened UTG. I'd dispute the fact that he has all AT/KT combos. If he is tight/aggressive and decent, he really shouldn't have the offsuit AT/KT combos in his range. He could play the suited AT/KT combos like this, which is 8 combos, but I'm sure there is some frequency in which he just doesn't bluff it into 5 players.

    If he does bluff with the naked A , I wonder what hands those are that don't have us beaten. AKo is probably 3bet at a good clip. AQo is 3bet some, but also has us crushed. AJo has us beat. And we determined that ATo probably isn't in his range.

    He could also just have a flush or a boat. Or a straight.

    We do have ok blockers to check/raise. But we just don't rep anything aside from maybe QJs. That becomes a problem, because if we're check/raising, his Jx hands are the ones we want to fold. And if we're repping QJs and he has Jx, there's a chance that we're just called out on it.
  • Oback2 Posts: 206Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    Yeah that’s a problem dp. You’re incredibly imbalanced in this spot, which is ok in a wild multi-way pot imo and not something to really worry about, but I would suggest checking a fair amount of your nut spade combos here to at least improve the construction of your ranges a bit for these spots. Heads up and 3 way pots is where you should look for some better balance to your ranges (not saying you don’t already just typing out loud)
    ohsnapzbrah said:

    We do have ok blockers to check/raise. But we just don't rep anything aside from maybe QJs. That becomes a problem, because if we're check/raising, his Jx hands are the ones we want to fold. And if we're repping QJs and he has Jx, there's a chance that we're just called out on it.
    How do we only rep QJs, Are you never taking this line with 3 combos of 910s for some thinner value (not spades as we’re betting that at a high % on flop) or easy x/r for value with JJ or nut spade combos? I’m betting off QJ a lot on the flop in such a multi-way dynamic as well.. which is what makes these multi-way spots so interesting to me.

    The real problem for 90-95% of players is that a x/r river is skewed entirely towards value as you have no bluffs, and you seemingly convince yourself you can never have value here so you won’t bluff in this spot ever... and that’s just poor range construction

    But like I said generally I think this is a fold, but a good exercise to think about for other spots.
    by 1dpbuck
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,127Subscriber
    I would consider leading the turn for ~ 1/2 pot
    After you checked the flop over to the good player, I think there's a strong chance he would bet any Qx hand he would call your UTG raise with. Same with with FD. So it's very unlikely he has a Qx or flush now on the turn.
    After it's been checked all around and SB and BB checked 2nd time to you, now they're also very unlikely to have a Q.

    So basically the strongest hand somebody can have most of the time now is Jx and we can have possibly as much as 15 outs vs that plus can put pressure on the river.
    If we check and it gets checked through again we're giving 4 people a shot at random overcards, plus who knows, maybe the donks are loose enough to have off-suit hand like A x , so we're even possibly getting value from worse.

    We're not repping much, but I'm not sure it matters and we do have some hands like JJ that would play this way ...maybe even AJ...maybe some passively played 7 6 (which wouldn't be a bad play vs 4 ppl btw)
    If somebody is a "deep thinker" :???: and starts thinking about what we repping, what about what can we be bluffing with here?
    Not much... AKo with What else?

    As played I would fold.
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