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Weird hand

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 406Subscriber
edited October 11 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
So im still trying to get the feel for players in indianapolis. Lot ofslow playing, rec players, and unaware maybe of pot size?

Lady who cant fold and pretty tight when she raises pf to 15 raised in the cutoff in a 1 3 game , 400 eff, w 2 limpers. I call otb w 6 7 and 2 blinds and limpers call. Pot is 75. Flop comes 3 4 10 . checked to pf raiser who bets 15. Not sure what to do here. Its such a good price w gutter, i can rep spades, its 15 for 90 and a lot of people behind , and otb. I call.

EVERYONE calls.

Turn is 3 Checked through.

River is J

2nd to act bets $20. Yes $20. And everyone folds. He is a young kid who seems like a reg here w headphones. He limp called pf, checked the turn. Bet 20 into 150. Everyone folded. Best he can have here is A high or a jack right? Im thinking i shouldve raised to 200 or something to take it down but what do i have? Would he really sp the flop w a set? W all these people in and board?

What you guys think i shouldve done? Bart?

Comments

  • kaboojie Posts: 192Subscriber
    I'd probably just fold on the flop. Odds are good enough to call, but I wouldnt want to face a c/r from one of the ep limpers . Also, in a 5 way pot, I wouldnt be too comfortable if we hit our draw and theres a third spade on board.

    It's hard to represent a strong hand otr. All of the draws bricked. If we had a strong hand, I dont think we would have slow played it 5 way on a fairly wet flop.

    I would just fold the river.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,303AdministratorLeadPro
    With a bunch of players to act behind you on the flop you should just be folding. Occasionally you could raise, maybe with deeper stacks and a backdoor flush draw, but calling is the worst option I think. Bart
  • Sonny Posts: 280Subscriber
    edited October 11
    I used to live in Indianapolis and played in the "charity" games and house games there since they started. I know a lot about the players and games there. Feel free to PM me. The Gaming Comission is investigating these games btw and I think theyre probably going to be shut down or severly restricted pretty soon. $5 rake and $1 on $100? Ha! Them jokes.
    If I ever feel like taking the things I've learned living in Vegas and playing in California, I could wreck those games. Most everyone is terrible. LOTS of gambling going on. More bluffing than a normal $1/3 game also. Even more gambling the last hour before the games end. A good player could easily make $30/hr at $1/3.
    Bluffing in these games is suicide. Just focus on value. They love to call, and will over value hands tremendously.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 406Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    I used to live in Indianapolis and played in the "charity" games and house games there since they started. I know a lot about the players and games there. Feel free to PM me. The Gaming Comission is investigating these games btw and I think theyre probably going to be shut down or severly restricted pretty soon. $5 rake and $1 on $100? Ha! Them jokes.
    If I ever feel like taking the things I've learned living in Vegas and playing in California, I could wreck those games. Most everyone is terrible. LOTS of gambling going on. More bluffing than a normal $1/3 game also. Even more gambling the last hour before the games end. A good player could easily make $30/hr at $1/3.
    Bluffing in these games is suicide. Just focus on value. They love to call, and will over value hands tremendously.
    yeah thats what i noticed. Sucks for me though because bluffing i ls part of the game and needed to make a profit in most cities, but i have yw5 to have a bluff work here. Sucks for me listening to,everything ionline and have these toold and info..and you haveto throw it all out the window because noone can fold anything. Cincinatti is the same way. Guy callsme pfr w 2nd pr all 3 streets. 4 flush w prd board, guy calls top 2 on river..but he chk called like a 10dollar bet 2 streets w 100 in the pot scared. I raise turn. Bomb all in riiver when he chks to me. All scarred he said, but he couldnt fold pot size bet on river. I shake my head like crazy. I think youre right..just value which is boring poker to me.

  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 406Subscriber
    Bart said:
    With a bunch of players to act behind you on the flop you should just be folding. Occasionally you could raise, maybe with deeper stacks and a backdoor flush draw, but calling is the worst option I think. Bart
    Such an insane price though. And raising i thought about..but too many players behind. Im getting like 9 to 1 thays the thing.
  • Sonny Posts: 280Subscriber
    edited October 11
    @wildncrazyguy Most of the players in the Midwest have the same general style of play. Cinci/Columbus, Indy, Kentucky, St Louis, Chicago and all the surrounding areas.
    I really think this is because the games are usually on the Riverboats, but even those that aren't are still in rather unpopulated areas. Indy doesn't have a deep player pool like LA. For someone to go play Poker in these areas, they have to usually drive at least 45 mins, and some have to travel for multiple hours to get to the Casino/Card Room. So as a result of that, they can't play every day and want to win big when they do play. This results in calling down light, making silly bluffs, over valuing hands etc etc...
    Playing tight solid poker is a little boring as we all know, making a move every once in a while and getting it through is way more fun than just waiting for Aces. But their is a silver lining, you say you need to make money, and these areas are great for it. It just requires some patience. Bluffing is fun, but imo winning money is more fun.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,208Subscriber
    Thought about my answer, read the Bart's response. Almost always I agree with Bart. This is one of the times I don't and it's specifically due to the bet size and the stakes. My answer is off the top of my head and intuition.

    You have a 3 outer here to the nuts. Raising isn't an option considering any Tx, overpair, or FD will call. And while it's very likely this board missed most of the players and a raise will get many hands to fold out the price you have to pay to accomplish this is too large vs the range that will continue along with the equity they have.

    So why call? I list the reasons.
    #1 It's a tiny bet that plays into a bluffing story and makes it easy to get paid off.
    #2 we know one player is weak. The preflop raiser.
    #3 On average we should get 2 callers on this flop. Very likely one with a FD and one with a Tx hand. But there is roughly a 75% chance NO ONE at the moment the flop comes down before any action takes place. If you get 2 callers it is 50% likely neither of them have a FD. If they have a strong hand you should see a flop XR or at the very least XC, B the turn.

    #4 Incredibly unlikely if they just call they have a strong hand. So take the average of 2 callers. Now you got a $120 pot with $15 to call. That's 8:1 direct odds. You need about 14:1 to be break even. Normally I would raise the odds required to continue due to strong hands slowplaying or getting XRed but it is also counterbalanced by a bluffing opportunity.

    So if we call the pot will be $135 (assuming 2 others call) with us only having to make $90 to break even for 1 card vs 2 callers and the preflop raiser who is clearly weak.

    If we are paying attention to those on our left we can get a gauge on how strong they are in the hand. But let's say we didn't look at them. We have another opportunity to gauge it by how quick they call and what they do on the turn.

    So say our callers XC and it's Xed to us OTT. Very likely no one has a strong hand now. As there was a weak bet and just calls OTF and Xs OTT. So our opportunity just shot up to bluff. We can bet the turn and river profitably as bluffs with some equity. You can bet moderate on the turn to bluff the river with a bomb. If the river flushes and they all check we can bluff. If the river doesnt flush and they check we can bluff if an overcard comes to the T. The pot is leveraged enough to make this possible. Then there are the turn and river tells of the players.

    #5 Now what about if we hit our hand? Can we get $90+ on the turn from them? Is anyone folding a FD with a very likely over? Never. 66-75% of their FDs hand an Ace, King, or Queen. So in their eyes they have an over + a FD.

    #6 The above pretty much applies to 1/2 and 1/3. At 2/5 I think either we wouldn't get paid often enough to make this profitable and we would get XRed on the flop often enough not to continue with a call. I also assume you can make people fold at this table.

    This is a high variance play. So these very specific conditions can make this hand a call to bluff later play.

    by 1Sonny
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