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Facing Aggression Vs an Unkown

kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
edited October 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I moved to this table 45 minutes before. V is an unkown. This is the first hand Ive seen him play.

2/5 500 cap 800 eff

3 limps, V limps in co, I 40 in sb w/A A

(90) F 6 8 Q I 45, V raises 105, I call

(300) T 9 x, V bets 225 Hero?

I think V's value range is pretty narrow here. That said, this the first hand Ive seen him in in 45 min so I doubt he is overplaying a weaker hand. Also, I think me having the A reduces a lot of V's semi bluff hands. Any feedback is appreciated.


  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,290Subscriber
    bet larger flop so you aren't potentially outdumbed.

    As is would an unknown bluff raise an unknown? Is it common for players to do so?
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    Fuzzypup said:
    As is would an unknown bluff raise an unknown? Is it common for players to do so?
    I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but I would say it's not too likely.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,290Subscriber
    Exactly so give him the credit for having a hand till he otherwise shows not to.
    by 1CycleV
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    That’s probably pretty sound advice in general. I am a little careful not to give unknowns too much credit though. Just when you think they might be solid, you see something and realize they are completely f*****g clueless.

    Thanks for the feedback.
  • CycleV Posts: 844Subscriber
    V is NOT an unknown. He hasn't played a hand in 45 min. V is likely between a TAG and a nit, and like Fuzzy said, until proven otherwise, I ain't paying a guy who is a nit.

    But good on you for recognizing that you have Ace hearts. That should def lead us into the fold camp. If he had AQ, oh well. Only other thing you should think about is what your image was, and if that would lead him to get aggro. But unless he has a reason to think you're a maniac, folding seems fine here.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,290Subscriber
    I guess let me define known. 45m is still unknown to me beyond a typical label like in this case a nit.

    For me known is a player I have played with for many hours over several sessions, have seen his play, understand his patterns, understand his betting. Most players are very specific and never change even guys who are well read. The problem is having enough time to spot their tendencies then taking the time to write notes on them.

    Then there are other issues. Say you got an aggro rec and he shows a 1 big bluff in 2 hours. Is he a bluffer? Or did he just have a brain fart in a general direction and bluffed that one time because he grew some balls and is now protecting a big stack?

    The absolute toughest opponent is the one who you can't figure out his game. He XRes the nuts sometimes, XCs other times, bets out other times. Repeat for bluffs. Mathematically if they are competent and balanced you are basically fucked. Because when you average their equities your TPGK is in really bad shape. Either they have you crushed or they have really good equity on you. But even there you have players that are very good balanced feel players without the math background. So they do have a flaw it just takes a while.

    Case in point I know a very good feel player I talk to at the Hard Rock. He poo-poos a lot of my theory math saying it doesnt apply here at 2/5. He lacks a perception of realized ranges linked to frequencies and bet sizes. It took me about a year to figure out how he thinks. For example he never bluffs the river unless you show extreme weakness but will bluff raise a flop or turn. So getting to the river is paramount vs this player because he will not bluff the river almost always. I have had a couple hands where I got raised on the turn by him in which vs most other players I fold but calling is important because he won't bluff the river once you call a raise. So the math works out vs his perceived ranges including bluffs. I only need ~22-28% equity vs his perceived range to make it a profitable call. And that is what he doesn't get. He needs to follow through on the river while his whole range to make my turn call -EV.

    Despite his shortfalls and I ain't saying I am no genius he is tough to play and took a long time to figure out.
  • CycleV Posts: 844Subscriber
    I wasn't criticizing you, Fuzzy, and hopefully my criticism of OP was mild. But it seems to me that lately there have been a few newer members who are saying, "Been at the table 2 hours, V is an unknown," or something along those lines. And my pushback is that there is no way you should have zero information after that length of time. Even an hour is 25-30 hands, depending.

    For OP and others, even the most basic stuff is info. If in 25 hands you've never seen the guy limp, that says to me he's likely not a drooler. Does he fold his SB in a limped pot, other stuff like that. Then there's the basic info like how's he dressed, how's he handle his chips, is he watching his phone or the game, etc.

    I'm one of the loud types who always has 2 conversations going on at once, so I miss plenty of stuff no doubt, but I think we can all pick up this basic info witout too much work. This is the basis of exploitative play, and if after 45 min you don't have the info, you're costing yourself money.

    FWIW in 3 years of live play I believe I've correctly acted on a behavioral tell (like breathing, etc) less than 10 times (maybe less than 5), but I believe I make correct decisions based on people's play patterns all the time. I'm sure we mostly all do, I just want OP and other newer members to focus on paying attention more.
    by 1Clock
  • 292YBlock Posts: 94Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    Be curious of the outcome here..the raise sizing seems a little like betting for information..which to me seems like QJhH or KQHH, ..I think a call or fold here are fine, tough spot, he has a lot of equity even if you're ahead right now. Think QQ raises pre-flop, QJ, KQ suited, both flat and could limp call. - I also think your flop bet sizing looks weak and might've invited a challenge (or a bluff), you bet 40 pre-flop ...I'm probably betting 60-65 on the flop.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,290Subscriber
    I didn't think you were criticizing me. I was just clarifying what I meant. And yes you pick up some basic information in just one round of play.
  • hustlin Posts: 260Subscriber
    Based on villains sizing here I would fold.
    Just a spot were u can be way behind way too often
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